...and you immediately reach for that wedge, without a hint of irony, lol. Before you ask someone else why something is happening..you should probably figure out whether or not that thing actually is happening.

Asian students -aren't- being booted on account of those no good underachieving negroes..Benny, they're getting shuffled aside for whites, lol. I'm fairly certain that this was explained to you earlier in this thread?

(December 27, 2018 at 3:59 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Sure, we have to support all of our citizens cradle to grave, and we largely don't....but even if we did ....there would still be systemic and institutional racism in the US.  That's why "race blind" policies don't work....to solve that problem, even though I'm sure they could solve a whole host of others.
(we actually do have states with affirmative action bans...the result of that is predictable)

This has been your answer to literally every substantive suggestion.  I suggested releasing prisoners who had extraordinary sentences for minor crimes (read: black men), and you said, "Yes, but that wouldn't cure racism."  I suggested that if IQ is correlated with income, we must work right from the cradle to ensure environment wasn't the main factor.  You said, "Yes. . . but still racism."

You're not even wrong.  Yet right now, black people have the highest acceptance rate in Harvard, by a fair margin, and the lowest test scores.  And then. . . whiff.  What's it doing?  Where's the culture shift?  Where's the added value?

Because racism is not curable by these means (it may not be curable at all)...all that we can hope for is to make it such that in a world with racism present, the effects of that racism can be ameliorated to some extent or another.  This is what affirmative action does.  It doesn't change a racists mind...or your mind, about how black people are lazy takers benefiting from reverse racism that targets whites..and other honorary wedge whites, lol.  You and they both are clearly going to think that regardless.  

It does mean, though, that in the face of racists and other assorted undesirables like yourself, they can still succeed. That's the added value, and the fact that you don't see value in that is a you problem, not a problem for affirmative action. Your privilege is showing. What you mean to ask, what you don't see..is the value to you.

The "highest acceptance rate in harvard, by a fair margin"...for reference, amounts to their record high enrollment of a whopping 10-12% (which is laughably about the same as it's been even though they do have affirmative action policies). So, gratz on ratcheting the disingenuity and cynicism of this thread up a fair few points.

(December 27, 2018 at 4:27 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: ...and you immediately reach for that wedge, without a hint of irony, lol.  Before you ask someone else why something is happening..you should probably figure out whether or not that thing actually is happening.

Asian students -aren't- being booted on account of those no good underachieving negroes..Benny, they're getting shuffled aside for whites, lol.  I'm fairly certain that this was explained to you earlier in this thread?

Yep, and I said earlier in this thread that that wasn't fair.  If Asian students are the best students, they should get accepted into the best schools.

Why should the rights of any individual citizen be compromised because of his membership in a racial demographic?

In the absence of affirmative action policies...that's exactly what happens. I mean, I don't wanna give away state secrets or anything...but..uh..... america just might have a problem with racism, eh?

(December 27, 2018 at 4:44 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: It does mean, though, that in the face of racists and other assorted undesirables like yourself, they can still succeed.  That's the added value, and the fact that you don't see value in that is a you problem, not a problem for affirmative action.  Your privilege is showing.  What you mean to ask, what you don't see..is the value to you.

Does it mean that? Do black Harvard graduates go on to shining financial prospects? Do they return to their impoverished roots and rain opportunity on their disenfranchised brothers and sisters?

If the latter were largely true, I would be heavily in favor of affirmative action. What I think really happens is that employers don't see as much value in that Harvard degree as you think they should, that those graduates who DO find very lucrative work get the fuck away from anything like poverty, and not that much more happens than Skylar and Scott who live next door to them now claim the distinct advantage of having black friends.

I can think of a dozen way in which such graduates might attack the statistical clusterfuck I was talking about, and if there's a statistical shift in any of those stats due to affirmative action, then I'll (a) be happy to hear it; (b) be proven wrong.
-Graduates from prestigious law schools (like Harvard) could return to poor communities to do pro bono, and could keep those dads out of jail
-Med school graduates could canvas for donations for drug-treatment facilities
-Programmers could train teams of teachers in the basics of robotics programming, and for a couple million dollars, you could have many thousands of kids with the required resources

You show me that real differences are made, and that all of this isn't just a token gesture of self-masturbatory fart-sniffing by guilty white guys, and I'll be deeply impressed.

Quote:The "highest acceptance rate in harvard, by a fair margin"...for reference, amounts to their record high enrollment of a whopping 10-12% (which is laughably about the same as it's been even though they do have affirmative action policies).  So, gratz on ratcheting the disingenuity and cynicism of this thread up a fair few points.  

And what's the acceptance rate for Asian kids? Are we still laughing?

---

(December 27, 2018 at 4:58 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: In the absence of affirmative action policies...that's exactly what happens.  I mean, I don't wanna give away state secrets or anything...but..uh..... america just might have a problem with racism, eh?

Have I ever denied that?

If you want to battle racism, battle racism.  News flash-- making formal policies based on race isn't counter-racism.  It's just racism.

That's why you need to do the legwork to attend to the rights and needs of every individual citizen.

(December 27, 2018 at 5:07 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(December 27, 2018 at 4:44 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: It does mean, though, that in the face of racists and other assorted undesirables like yourself, they can still succeed.  That's the added value, and the fact that you don't see value in that is a you problem, not a problem for affirmative action.  Your privilege is showing.  What you mean to ask, what you don't see..is the value to you.

Does it mean that?  Do black Harvard graduates go on to shining financial prospects?  Do they return to their impoverished roots and rain opportunity on their disenfranchised brothers and sisters?

If the latter were largely true, I would be heavily in favor of affirmative action.  What I think really happens is that employers don't see as much value in that Harvard degree as you think they should, that those graduates who DO find very lucrative work get the fuck away from anything like poverty, and not that much more happens than Skylar and Scott who live next door to them now claim the distinct advantage of having black friends.

I can think of a dozen way in which such graduates might attack the statistical clusterfuck I was talking about, and if there's a statistical shift in any of those stats due to affirmative action, then I'll (a) be happy to hear it; (b) be proven wrong.
-Graduates from prestigious law schools (like Harvard) could return to poor communities to do pro bono, and could keep those dads out of jail
-Med school graduates could canvas for donations for drug-treatment facilities
-Programmers could train teams of teachers in the basics of robotics programming, and for a couple million dollars, you could have many thousands of kids with the required resources

You show me that real differences are made, and that all of this isn't just a token gesture of self-masturbatory fart-sniffing by guilty white guys, and I'll be deeply impressed.

Yes, Benny, it does mean that.  In a country where you couldn't use the same bathrooms..in living memory, a black person can now go to an ivy league school.  That, in an of itself, is success.  Maybe not to you, since going to school is just a thing you take for granted as the normal way of things....

.............but that's your privilege showing, again.

Quote:

Quote:The "highest acceptance rate in harvard, by a fair margin"...for reference, amounts to their record high enrollment of a whopping 10-12% (which is laughably about the same as it's been even though they do have affirmative action policies).  So, gratz on ratcheting the disingenuity and cynicism of this thread up a fair few points.  

And what's the acceptance rate for Asian kids?  Are we still laughing?

We? Probably not..but I am, since abnormally low rates of asian kids at schools would be remedied by adhering to affirmative action policies.  Fuckin shocker..I know!

Quote:Have I ever denied that?

If you want to battle racism, battle racism.  News flash-- making formal policies based on race isn't counter-racism.  It's just racism.

That's why you need to do the legwork to attend to the rights and needs of every individual citizen.

-and again with the white grievance.  That you can't distinguish the therapy from the cancer is a you problem. That's it, that's all...there's really nothing else to this.  You're wrong, and determined to remain so. Affirmative action doesn't exist to hold the white man down..and it doesn't hold the white man down. Between affirmative action and racism...one of these things is not like the other.

(December 27, 2018 at 5:19 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: -and again with the white grievance.  That you can't distinguish the therapy from the cancer is a you problem. That's it, that's all...there's really nothing else to this.  You're wrong, and determined to remain so.  Affirmative action doesn't exist to hold the white man down..and it doesn't hold the white man down.

You keep saying this, in argument to who, exactly? The straw man you keep putting up for me?

---

(December 27, 2018 at 5:19 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: .............but that's your privilege showing, again.

My mom grew up on a native reserve (I'm 1/8 Penobscot or maybe 1/4 depending on who you ask) when she was small, and then lived in a farming community with my grandmother. I was epileptic, and my medicine made me so stoned that I never really had a real friend until I was about 8. I was passed around from grandparent to uncle to grandparent when i wasn't with her, and went a fair number of days with only one meal (usually Ichiban noodles) when I was with her. I spent (as I've mentioned before) a couple years on the street full-time, and on-and-off it for a few more. I'll spare you the list of things that happened to me during that time, but I can assure you that it wasn't an advantageous situation for a young person.

But yep, I have a noticeable melanin deficiency. Tell me all about my privilege, asshole.

That's the thing, Benny, I don't have to tell you, you express it in every post.  Your anger at being told these things, regardless of the fact that they are true... causes you to act like an asshole and accept white supremacist propaganda as a counterpoint to what you're being told.

In a way, this is an expression in miniature of racism as a whole as it's practiced now. Affrimative action is not racism...not even by a longshot...and yet this has been your constant argument. It's the core of white grievance as a whole, stretching all the way back to the 60's. Exposed for that, you recoil and accuse others of strawmanning you. OFC it's not straw,...it's just that you realize how fucking stupid it sounds without the grounding rhetoric of the white supremacists you swear to baby jesus haven't influenced you in the least, lol.

Personally...I think that if you put down the supremacist's crackpipe...you'd still be an asshole, but you wouldn't be an unintentionally racist one. That's just my two cents.

(December 27, 2018 at 6:05 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: In a way, this is an expression in miniature of racism as a whole as it's practiced now.  Affrimative action is not racism...not even by a longshot...and yet this has been your constant argument.

The problem is that you don't know what words mean. "Racism" is systematized thought centered around race, and the actions that come from it. That's what you are arguing for. My argument is that individuals, not demographics, have a contract with the society.

Quote:  It's the core of white grievance as a whole, stretching all the way back to the 60's.  Exposed for that, you recoil and accuse others of strawmanning you.  OFC it's not straw,...it's just that you realize how fucking stupid it sounds without the grounding rhetoric of the white supremacists you swear to baby jesus haven't influenced you in the least, lol.

I don't particularly recoil from your straw man. The problem is that you want to make it about White Power, when really it's just about fairness. Unless, that is, you've decided that Asian people are white.

You can keep calling "witch" all day, but in the end, you are endorsing a policy based not on individual needs or achievements, but on racial demographics. That you cannot see the irony of pushing for the lessening of racism while loudly pronouncing the value of racist policies is unlikely to lead to much good.

Quote:Personally...I think that if you put down the supremacist's crackpipe...you'd still be an asshole, but you wouldn't be an unintentionally racist one.  That's just my two cents.

I have to say, I don't really appreciate the constant racist language you've used. I know you think that anti-black racism in history gives you, a white guy, carte blanche to throw constant anti-white epithets, but there's another option available-- not doing that.

I'd also prefer you not use words like "asshole." Your goal is to demean with language, and I think that's a goal that you shouldn't have. Why be like that at all? Is this really the internet discussion experience that you want to have?