(December 30, 2018 at 11:09 pm)Angelina Wrote: But how is it possible that we are self aware humans with brains and love for each other etc, if there is nothing else like us anywhere in billions of galaxies and maybe multiple universes?

(December 30, 2018 at 11:23 pm)possibletarian Wrote: How do you know there is no life elsewhere, perhaps some that have exceeded our level of intelligence and love ?  Is it even logical to assume we are alone in the universe ?
We simply have no way of knowing, if you don't know simply say you don't know. 

I do believe there is life elsewhere, and I believe that life is God, who definitely exceeds our level of intelligence.

(December 30, 2018 at 11:09 pm)Angelina Wrote: Why would we be unique and more importantly how would we be unique in those ways?

(December 30, 2018 at 11:23 pm)possibletarian Wrote: What are you comparing us with to say we are unique, and what makes you believe those ways are the objectively (if such a thing exists) noble ?  

Unique as compared to the rest of the known and unknown universe.

(December 30, 2018 at 11:09 pm)Angelina Wrote: Why would we be able to even have any experiences, if there were not some enabler of those experiences?

(December 30, 2018 at 11:23 pm)possibletarian Wrote: We don't know, but what reason do you have to throw a god in the mix ?  We could possible be the least intelligent prime species in the universe, we simply do not know.

Again you are simply asserting as truth things you cannot possibly know.

It is not just intelligence that we have. We have orgasms, sensations, euphoria, extreme emotional and physical pain, fear, sadness, loneliness if we are without eachother, heart break, grief... a myriad of emotions and self awareness. How could there not be a God who created us? To me it seems very odd to think how all that we are could have "just happened randomly by chance"

Quote:Well, ok so you have no problem believing there are other creatures elsewhere in the universe. But if that is true, and those creatures are more complex and more intelligent than we are, then you would have to also assume they may have been the creator of our universe.

Why would I have to assume that? How would that follow? How would their existence in the universe in any way indicate they may have created the universe?

Quote:Who made up that rule? I believe God is demonstrated to us by what exists here and that includes life and our ability to be self aware and to experience things on many levels. Not one thing about being human seems like it could have just occured by random chance.

That rule is just a general epistemological rule. If you propose a thing was made by an agent you have to first establish that said agent exists at all. You cannot say that a thing proves the existence of a thing making agent. That’s circular reasoning. And just because YOU think that humans could not have evolved this way without any agent guiding it doesn’t mean that this is true. You still need to demonstrate this agent.

Let’s say we didn’t know anything about evolution. Let’s say we knew nothing about human cognition. This would not mean we were justified in claiming it was due to some agent. That claim needs to be supported on its own.

You might say that the fact that the universe is great is due to the existence of some god thing (which you can’t demonstrate) but Larry says it is due to the existence of inter dimensional unicorns which he can’t demonstrate. Each claim must be supported independently.

EDIT: upon re-reading this some more savvy person might say instead of circular reasoning it’s the logical fallacy of well poisoning. But as I don’t care about the formal name it doesn’t matter much. The concept is what matters so if that needs clarification I will try.

(December 30, 2018 at 11:15 pm)possibletarian Wrote:

(December 30, 2018 at 10:52 pm)Angelina Wrote: If you don't know, why are you completely dismissing the possibility of an All knowing creator?

I'm waiting for credible evidence, do you have any?
I assure you if you produce proofs and evidence of such a mighty powerful, all knowing, all loving, all seeing creator, who has declared his love for mankind and wants all men to be saved then I will believe.

Quote:Isn't your statement that feelings and experiences can get you to God no matter where you live proof of God's existence right there?

No you are being disingenuous, in any reasonable discussion (knowing I was an unbeliever)  you would have translated being able to get to any god or belief as a matter of belief in a god only, which remains unproven.

Quote:All religions may contain some truths and God certainly does exist,

This is nothing more than a statement of belief without proof.

Quote:but Jesus was the one true messenger of God,

Not Mohammed for instance then?  Again this is a simply a statement of belief only, unless you have more ?

Quote: sent to teach us the right way to live and this is demonstrated by the good works of Christians worldwide.

I wouldn't be quoting the 'good works' of Christians worldwide in the current climate, looking at history for every good work you claim I can produce evidence of the opposite, for sure some people have done good things, but it's not christian only, in fact far from it the majority of the world are not christians, and most the good works of charity I see are carried out by non christians.

again you are simply making statements.

That is provably false. Christians are doing more good in the world than any other group of people who has ever existed, and by a lot. I will respond to the rest a little bit later.

(December 30, 2018 at 11:48 pm)Angelina Wrote: I do believe there is life elsewhere, and I believe that life is God, who definitely exceeds our level of intelligence.

Again, simply a belief nothing more

Quote:Unique as compared to the rest of the known and unknown universe.

How would you know.. I mean assertion aside ?  

Quote:It is not just intelligence that we have. We have orgasms, sensations, euphoria, extreme emotional and physical pain, fear, sadness, loneliness if we are without eachother, heart break, grief... a myriad of emotions and self awareness. How could there not be a God who created us? To me it seems very odd to think how all that we are could have "just happened randomly by chance"

Again a belief, nothing more, we keep asking for evidence and you just keep asserting
Again read up on evolution.


Look, you are claiming a mighty all knowing, all loving god, all powerful god who loves us so dearly and deeply, he/she/it wants everyone to know he/she/it and be saved to some fantastical world beyond our own..

where is your proof ?

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(December 30, 2018 at 11:58 pm)Angelina Wrote:

(December 30, 2018 at 11:15 pm)possibletarian Wrote: I'm waiting for credible evidence, do you have any?
I assure you if you produce proofs and evidence of such a mighty powerful, all knowing, all loving, all seeing creator, who has declared his love for mankind and wants all men to be saved then I will believe.



No you are being disingenuous, in any reasonable discussion (knowing I was an unbeliever)  you would have translated being able to get to any god or belief as a matter of belief in a god only, which remains unproven.


This is nothing more than a statement of belief without proof.


Not Mohammed for instance then?  Again this is a simply a statement of belief only, unless you have more ?


I wouldn't be quoting the 'good works' of Christians worldwide in the current climate, looking at history for every good work you claim I can produce evidence of the opposite, for sure some people have done good things, but it's not christian only, in fact far from it the majority of the world are not christians, and most the good works of charity I see are carried out by non christians.

again you are simply making statements.

That is provably false. Christians are doing more good in the world than any other group of people who has ever existed, and by a lot. I will respond to the rest a little bit later.

I look forward to it, and your evidence

(December 30, 2018 at 11:58 pm)Angelina Wrote: Christians are doing more good in the world than any other group of people who has ever existed, and by a lot.

Really? Even more good than Muslims? Are Christians better as people than Muslims?

Angelina - there is nothing I can say to you.
Your mind is closed. You have a set belief and I doubt nothing will change that.

I can't explain to you in simple terms why the sky is blue or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The universe exists.
The energy of the universe, I would say, has always existed. Where would it go ?

How can it not exist ?

I am going to guess and say you believe the universe is so complex, it must have a creator.

Which is more complex, the universe or a god ?

I will again guess, that you will say god.

Then I would say "God is so complex, that he must have a creator. He couldn't just come from out of thin air. He must be created."

Nature is very complex.
Just because you don't understand it, isn't a good reason to believe in a god.

(December 30, 2018 at 10:24 pm)Angelina Wrote: If not God, then what? If not nothing, then what is the something?
God has become clear to me through my experiences being born again and filled with the holy spirit.

I could understand why you'd believe something, if you had an experience like that.  It won't help others to believe it, ofc...since they didn't have such an experience, nor is there any lack of alternative explanations for such experiences.

How would you go about things if someone else offered an identical but competing assertion? That they'd been filled by the holy spirit of some other god, which made clear to them that it wasn't your god?

At work.

(December 30, 2018 at 11:58 pm)Angelina Wrote: Christians are doing more good in the world than any other group of people who has ever existed, and by a lot.

I'm sorry but I have to nitpick about this.

Firstly, human civilization goes back 10 or so thousand years with hunter-gartheres going back 50 or so thousand before that.

The current 'Monotheistic' phase only goes back a couple thousand. With secularism and separation between church and state occuring for an easy quarter of even that time.

The assertion of 'My theism has done more good' is demonstrably false given just the time scales of history involved.

Sorry for the slight pedantry.

(December 31, 2018 at 12:32 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.

(December 30, 2018 at 11:58 pm)Angelina Wrote: Christians are doing more good in the world than any other group of people who has ever existed, and by a lot.

I'm sorry but I have to nitpick about this.

Firstly, human civilization goes back 10 or so thousand years with hunter-gartheres going back 50 or so thousand before that.

The current 'Monotheistic' phase only goes back a couple thousand.  With secularism and separation between church and state occuring for an easy quarter of even that time.

The assertion of 'My theism has done more good' is demonstrably false given just the time scales of history involved.

Sorry for the slight pedantry.  

What hunter-gatherers are you referring to?  How did you date them that far back?

A combination of relative and absolute dating methods combined with stratigraphy and then compared over multiple sites. All of these converging lines of evidence demonstrate to us that humans had become fully modern (that is, behaviorally and anatomically modern) by the middle paleolithic. At present, we think it was towards the end because that's what the sites suggest. Could have been earlier, couldn't have been later. The contents of those sites demonstrate that the occupants were nomadic or semi-nomadic hunter gatherers.