(January 16, 2019 at 3:26 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If you think education is strictly about money, that is simply stupid.

Typically when you enter college, you select a major, most of your course work and study will be devoted to that major, and you'll take a small selection of electives, a handful of which might be humanities, history courses, etc... As far as being exposed to diversity and understanding the world, there's perhaps a lot more to be learned by living in a diverse environment, than any formal education. As far as your moral development, there's more contributed to that development in your actual relationship with people, your family, friends, community, in the love between people, than any formal education can contribute.

Quote:Thank you for making the claim that my degree didn't shape my morals. It didn't line my pockets, but it most certainly made me a better person.

How so? Has it improved your relationship with your parents? Are you married, have kids? Has it made you a better father or husband?

Being a better person for me, means being a better father, husband, brother, son, a member of my community, and the role of my formal education in this area is pretty negligible.

I never looked at a very educated person, and though what a good person. If he was a good person it seemed in spite of his education. Most of the people that I see as remarkably good people, tend not to be all that educated.

Never have I looked at a good kid, and thought if only I send my kids to the school they went to, would they turn out to be just as good. Whatever good qualities they posses, their remarkable moral character, seems to be a product of things that are in spite of their education.

(January 16, 2019 at 3:42 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 16, 2019 at 3:26 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If you think education is strictly about money, that is simply stupid.

Typically when you enter college, you select a major, most of your course work and study will be devoted to that major, and you'll take a small selection of electives, a handful of which might be humanities, history courses, etc... As far as being exposed to diversity and understanding the world, there's perhaps a lot more to be learned by living in a diverse environment, than any formal education. As far as your moral development, there's more contributed to that development in your actual relationship with people, your family, friends, community, in the love between people, than any formal education can contribute.

Quote:Thank you for making the claim that my degree didn't shape my morals. It didn't line my pockets, but it most certainly made me a better person.

How so? Has it improved your relationship with your parents? Are you married, have kids? Has it made you a better father or husband?

Being a better person for me, means being a better father, husband, brother, son, a member of my community, and the role of my formal education in this area is pretty negligible.

I never looked at a very educated person, and though what a good person. If he was a good person it seemed in spite of his education. Most of the people that I see as remarkably good people, tend not to be all that educated.

Never have I looked at a good kid, and thought if only I send my kids to the school they went to, would they turn out to be just as good. Whatever good qualities they posses, their remarkable moral character, seems to be a product of things that are in spite of their education.

How is my personal life your business? 

I was talking about how my college degree helped shaped ME. How other individuals see that experience varies. 

 But I bet you define your life by the old mythology that life is about making kids and being the king of the household. I am not a father so I don't have to worry about it do I? There is no federal law forcing me to have kids is there?

Hate to burst your bubble, but there are tons of crappy parents who neglect, and abuse their kids who would call themselves religious.

(January 16, 2019 at 4:18 pm)Brian37 Wrote: How is my personal life your business? 

I was talking about how my college degree helped shaped ME. How other individuals see that experience varies. 

 But I bet you define your life by the old mythology that life is about making kids and being the king of the household. I am not a father so I don't have to worry about it do I? There is no federal law forcing me to have kids is there?

Hate to burst your bubble, but there are tons of crappy parents who neglect, and abuse their kids who would call themselves religious.

You suggested that your formal education made your morally better, and i’m asking you how it did, in what area of your life did it make you a morally better person?

I indicated that moral development is relational, so I  was asking what relationships has this bettering impacted?

Did it make you kinder,  more patient, compassionate to those in your personal life?

I’m not asking you specifics about you personal life, just asking you how you gauge this moral improvement.

And no I don't think everyone needs to have kids, and be married, though I enjoy being a dad and a husband, more than anything else.

(January 16, 2019 at 4:32 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 16, 2019 at 4:18 pm)Brian37 Wrote: How is my personal life your business? 

I was talking about how my college degree helped shaped ME. How other individuals see that experience varies. 

 But I bet you define your life by the old mythology that life is about making kids and being the king of the household. I am not a father so I don't have to worry about it do I? There is no federal law forcing me to have kids is there?

Hate to burst your bubble, but there are tons of crappy parents who neglect, and abuse their kids who would call themselves religious.

You suggested that your formal education made your morally better, and i’m asking you how it did, in what area of your life did it make your a morally better person?

I indicated that moral development is relational, so I  was asking what relationships has this bettering impacted?

Did it make you kinder,  more patient, compassionate to those in your personal life?

I’m not asking you specifics about you personal life, just asking you how you gauges this moral improvement.

Yes it did. It exposed me to a life I otherwise would not have been exposed to. It allowed me far more exposure to people I could identify with than I had growing up. It made me a far more confident person and secure in knowing it was ok to be myself.

I spent my childhood running from bullies, and that in turn cased me to be destructive as a teen. I am lucky, I outgrew it. 

And no, I didn't "suggest" I stated it did change me for the positive.

And don't try to play shrink with me ok? I am a very kind person, but also a person who can smell BS at the same time.

Being a good person to me is simple. Don't get violent with others, and don't judge them because of their pay or class Outside that, yes I do judge bad logic.

As far as patience, no, I have no patience for old mythology, now please don't confuse that with valuing human rights. I'd have no patience with you if you were claiming Apollo either, but I wouldn't have you arrested if you claimed Apollo was real. I would simply say you are full of it.

(January 16, 2019 at 3:21 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 16, 2019 at 3:07 pm)Brian37 Wrote: "Evil" isn't something coming from an invisible super villain. It does not take old mythology to recognize monsters. 

I never suggested any of the above, but that good and evil is a matter of truth, not social consensus. To say that the holocaust is evil, is to say that 1+1 = 2, and not like saying those shoes look good on you.

Quote:Ignorance is what keeps people living in the past. Education is what helps humanity progress.

Education helps you to be economically successful, the degree in which it influences and shapes your moral character, is pretty minimal. Parents hoping that teachers or universities will positively contribute to the moral shaping of their children, will find themselves disappointed.

These are Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral growth. Notice that the lowest level of moral thinking is obedience--- fear of punishment/seeking of rewards. This is what most religions emphasize-- lower level, egoistic morality. (obedience to God, fear of Hell etc.) AT BEST, religion conveys morality at the conventional level, where a moral agent adopts guidelines from the encompassing society or culture. This is morality based on conformity.

But moral thinking can go beyond that. Notice that the highest levels of moral thinking involve abstraction and sometimes transcends societal thinking. THIS morality isn't about avoidance of punishment or conformity. Higher education, in particular can equip individuals with the intellectual tools to perform such abstractions. Hence, education can be beneficial for a moral agent in this regard.

And just because you mentioned math...

(January 16, 2019 at 4:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I spent my childhood running from bullies, and that in turn cased me to be destructive as a teen. I am lucky, I outgrew it. 

And no, I didn't "suggest" I stated it did change me for the positive.

And don't try to play shrink with me ok? I am a very kind person, but also a person who can smell BS at the same time.

I apologize if you took anything I said personally, or as any type of judgement of you as a person.

I don’t know you, but I’m sure you’re a decent dude, I doubt the conclusion that school made you a more moral person, not that you’re not a good person, but that’s okay I won’t push the questions any further.

Quote:Being a good person to me is simple. Don't get violent with others, and don't judge them because of their pay or class Outside that, yes

In my view that’s a pretty weak concept of a good person, an apathetic person, could fit the bill.

Being good in my view is being a person of good character, kind, honest, compassionate, considerate, humble, courageous, etc.. in fact I’d say moral courage is a big one, to stand up for what’s right when needed.

Raising a daughter, i value her being a good person, over being smart. I rather have a good child, a kind and loving one, than a scientific genius.

(January 16, 2019 at 4:50 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(January 16, 2019 at 3:21 pm)Acrobat Wrote: I never suggested any of the above, but that good and evil is a matter of truth, not social consensus. To say that the holocaust is evil, is to say that 1+1 = 2, and not like saying those shoes look good on you.


Education helps you to be economically successful, the degree in which it influences and shapes your moral character, is pretty minimal. Parents hoping that teachers or universities will positively contribute to the moral shaping of their children, will find themselves disappointed.

These are Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral growth. Notice that the lowest level of moral thinking is obedience--- fear of punishment/seeking of rewards. This is what most religions emphasize-- lower level, egoistic morality. (obedience to God, fear of Hell etc.) AT BEST, religion conveys morality at the conventional level, where a moral agent adopts guidelines from the encompassing society or culture. This is morality based on conformity.

But moral thinking can go beyond that. Notice that the highest levels of moral thinking involve abstraction and sometimes transcends societal thinking. THIS morality isn't about avoidance of punishment or conformity. Higher education, in particular can equip individuals with the intellectual tools to perform such abstractions. Hence, education can be beneficial for a moral agent in this regard.

And just because you mentioned math...

U make some good points.
All I'm saying is that England was found on Christianity and that we have no reference in atheism to turn to for morality that we can all agree on.

(January 16, 2019 at 4:50 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: But moral thinking can go beyond that. Notice that the highest levels of moral thinking involve abstraction and sometimes transcends societal thinking. THIS morality isn't about avoidance of punishment or conformity. Higher education, in particular can equip individuals with the intellectual tools to perform such abstractions. Hence, education can be beneficial for a moral agent in this regard.

If I’m seeking the best moral development from my education, do you think I should major in mechanical engineering, or would it better served by being a humanities major? Do technical degrees, mathematical degrees, etc.. give us less moral development, than humanities degrees, or a bachelors in psychology?

Quote:These are Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral growth. Notice that the lowest level of moral thinking is obedience--- fear of punishment/seeking of rewards. This is what most religions emphasize-- lower level, egoistic morality. (obedience to God, fear of Hell etc.) AT BEST, religion conveys morality at the conventional level, where a moral agent adopts guidelines from the encompassing society or culture. This is morality based on conformity.

No, the actual moral life of believers, doesn’t consist of morality represented as blinded obedience out of fear or, or fear at all, but rather built on the obligation to love.

I also think that people tend to imagine that actual moral lives of people are devoted to political questions, abortion and gay rights, as if these play any real part in the lives of the majority of people. They are more or less things you might think about every few years when it comes time to vote, but in everyday life it is out of sight out of mind. Its existence in political contemplations and policy choices, is superficial, and an after thought.


Everyday morality is intimate and personal, it has do with our relationships with others, with those near to us, our families, friends, community, etc… Morality is a constant part of my life. In struggling be a good father, a husband, a son, in the restoration of broken relationship. It’s contemplating my moral failing, and the moral failing of those I care about. It’s about talking to my wife of how we shouldn’t talk bad about people, how we should forgive and not hold to resent. It’s about telling my father, that his dark cloud of petty resentments and disappointment, is the result of his inability to truly repent, and acknowledge the weight of his sins, to love as Christ loved us. When it’s laid with true compassion, it’s like the out pouring of fire, of a profound and irrefutable truth.

That’s the predominant moral view of believers.

(January 16, 2019 at 6:36 pm)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 16, 2019 at 4:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I spent my childhood running from bullies, and that in turn cased me to be destructive as a teen. I am lucky, I outgrew it. 

And no, I didn't "suggest" I stated it did change me for the positive.

And don't try to play shrink with me ok? I am a very kind person, but also a person who can smell BS at the same time.

I apologize if you took anything I said personally, or as any type of judgement of you as a person.

I don’t know you, but I’m sure you’re  a decent dude, I doubt the conclusion that school made you a more moral person, not that you’re not a good person, but that’s okay I won’t push the questions any further.

Quote:Being a good person to me is simple. Don't get violent with others, and don't judge them because of their pay or class Outside that, yes

In my view that’s a pretty weak concept of a good person, an apathetic person, could fit the bill.

Being good in my view is being a person of good character, kind, honest, compassionate, considerate, humble, courageous, etc.. in fact I’d say moral courage is a big one, to stand up for what’s right when needed.

Raising a daughter, i value her being a good person, over being smart. I rather have a good child, a kind and loving one, than a scientific genius.

I didn't say you were judging me. I have seen this tactic by theists long before I met you.

"Good character", that is a loaded Chichi. Hitler and Stalin's supporters would have argued they were of "good character" too.

"Kind" yea, that doesn't mean one has to be a doormat, or never challenge the claims of others.

"honest", that's rich coming from someone defending old mythology. I am sure you honestly believe it, but no, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

"Compassionate".... Again, that also does not mean never objecting to bad claims.

"Considerate" Yes I do consider where I make an argument and when I make an argument, and right now I am on an atheist website that allows guests including theists. Maybe you need to consider where you are at? 

"Humble".... That is a hard argument to make while defending a book with a head character who is hardly "humble" himself and spends the entire book saying "obey me or else", and "Look at me, it is all about me."

I most certainly am humble. Don't confuse bluntness with lack of humility. I accept I am finite, I accept that life will go on without me and do fine without me. I am not so arrogant as  to think the universe cannot exist without me. It will be fine long after I am gone.

And stop making education an either or thing. It is a fact that better educated society has a tendency to be more stable. I never claimed every single human must become Hawking or be considered a loser. But it is still possible for laypeople to have the basics. 

You don't have to be Richard Dawkins to understand the basics of evolution, or to accept it. You don't have to be Neil Degrasse Tyson to accept that the earth is a globe. I cant do a fraction to save my life myself, but I also don't have to be able to build a car from scratch to be able to drive one, and to also know cars don't run on Speed Racer cartoon dust.

And do not think I don't understand what you are saying about your daughter. My late mother accepted me with all my faults, and while growing up she did try to make me a clone of her, in her old age she grew to accept me for me, even though I never turned out to be a professional with a high paying job.  She was still happy that I wasn't a criminal, or violent, and she grew to see and accept that I was a good person. 

Sorry but all you are doing is saying, "I am better off because of my religion." Yea well, 7 billion people, and plenty of humans with other religions claim the same thing.

Quick question:  Does morality come from God or through God?

Boru