(January 17, 2019 at 9:19 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Quick question:  Does morality come from God or through God?

Boru

  Waiting to see the gymnastics in the response.

(January 17, 2019 at 8:53 am)Brian37 Wrote: "Good character", that is a loaded Chichi. Hitler and Stalin's supporters would have argued they were of "good character" too.

And I’d wonder what they mean by saying they had “good character”, but judging that we don’t have any actual supporters to direct that question too, it’s a moot point.

Generally when I hear people talk of Good Character, regardless of affiliations, they tend to have similar values and conceptions in mind, a similar meaning attached to the term, who they think best embodies those values might differ, but what those values are pretty consistent. This conception seems to be recognized pretty early on, hence why we don’t need to tell children who the good guy and bad guys are in cartoons and Disney movies, those distinctions seem apparent.

Quote:“Kind" yea, that doesn't mean one has to be a doormat, or never challenge the claims of others.

Who said it means one ought to be a doormat, or never challenge the claims of others?

Quote:“honest", that's rich coming from someone defending old mythology. I am sure you honestly believe it, but no, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

I hear this often leveled at believers. If I honestly believe it, how can I be dishonest with myself? Are we born with some inner atheist, that we have to deny in order to be a believer? If one’s theism is based on ignorance of certain facts about reality, is it only dishonest when one becomes aware of these facts, but rejects them anyway, but not dishonest prior? I hoping you can think of this claim of yours a bit, because I’m curious to hear you elaborate on it.

Quote:“Compassionate".... Again, that also does not mean never objecting to bad claims.

Never said it did.

Quote:“Considerate" Yes I do consider where I make an argument and when I make an argument, and right now I am on an atheist website that allows guests including theists. Maybe you need to consider where you are at? 

Yes, I’m a guest on this forum, owned by others. Have I done something unbecoming of a guest here? Been inconsiderate?

Quote:And stop making education an either or thing. It is a fact that better educated society has a tendency to be more stable.

I don’t disagree with a relationship between education and stability, there’s a lot of components that contribute to stability, homogeny being another one. But none of this means more moral. A country can be pretty stable, and fairly apathetic and nihilistic in its moral views. Japan may be a very stable country, doesn’t mean it’s a moral nation than others.

Quote:My late mother accepted me with all my faults, and while growing up she did try to make me a clone of her, in her old age she grew to accept me for me, even though I never turned out to be a professional with a high paying job.  She was still happy that I wasn't a criminal, or violent, and she grew to see and accept that I was a good person. 

I would feel the same, even if my child didn’t turn out to be a professional, as long as she grew up to be kind, loving, considerate, honest, etc… I’d be quite happy, and would be unhappy and disappointed if she wasn’t. I’d be more disappointed if she turned out to be a douchebag, than if she wasn’t making at least six figures.

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(January 17, 2019 at 9:19 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Quick question:  Does morality come from God or through God?

Boru

Neither, I'm a platonist in my moral view. 

The Good is God.

(January 17, 2019 at 9:41 am)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 17, 2019 at 8:53 am)Brian37 Wrote: "Good character", that is a loaded Chichi. Hitler and Stalin's supporters would have argued they were of "good character" too.

And I’d wonder what they mean by saying they had “good character”, but judging that we don’t have any actual supporters to direct that question too, it’s a moot point.

Generally when I hear people talk of Good Character, regardless of affiliations, they tend to have similar values and conceptions in mind, a similar meaning attached to the term, who they think best embodies those values might differ, but what those values are pretty consistent. This conception seems to be recognized pretty early on, hence why we don’t need to tell children who the good guy and bad guys are in cartoons and Disney movies, those distinctions seem apparent.

Quote:“Kind" yea, that doesn't mean one has to be a doormat, or never challenge the claims of others.

Who said it means one ought to be a doormat, or never challenge the claims of others?

Quote:“honest", that's rich coming from someone defending old mythology. I am sure you honestly believe it, but no, I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

I hear this often leveled at believers.  If I honestly believe it, how can I be dishonest with myself? Are we born with some inner atheist, that we have to deny in order to be a believer? If one’s theism is based on ignorance of certain facts about reality, is it only dishonest when one becomes aware of these facts, but rejects them anyway, but not dishonest prior? I hoping you can think of this claim of yours a bit, because I’m curious to hear you elaborate on it.

Quote:“Compassionate".... Again, that also does not mean never objecting to bad claims.

Never said it did.

Quote:“Considerate" Yes I do consider where I make an argument and when I make an argument, and right now I am on an atheist website that allows guests including theists. Maybe you need to consider where you are at? 

Yes, I’m a guest on this forum, owned by others. Have I done something unbecoming of a guest here? Been inconsiderate?

Quote:And stop making education an either or thing. It is a fact that better educated society has a tendency to be more stable.

I don’t disagree with a relationship between education and stability, there’s a lot of components that contribute to stability, homogeny being another one. But none of this means more moral. A country can be pretty stable, and fairly apathetic and nihilistic in its moral views. Japan may be a very stable country, doesn’t mean it’s a moral nation than others.

Quote:My late mother accepted me with all my faults, and while growing up she did try to make me a clone of her, in her old age she grew to accept me for me, even though I never turned out to be a professional with a high paying job.  She was still happy that I wasn't a criminal, or violent, and she grew to see and accept that I was a good person. 

I would feel the same, even if my child didn’t turn out to be a professional, as long as she grew up to be kind, loving, considerate, honest, etc… I’d be quite happy, and would be unhappy and disappointed if she wasn’t. I’d be more disappointed if she turned out to be a douchebag, than if she wasn’t making at least six figures.

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(January 17, 2019 at 9:19 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Quick question:  Does morality come from God or through God?

Boru

Neither, I'm a platonist in my moral view. 

The Good is God.

^^^^^ "Good is God"....

Nope, that is a naked assertion, not evidence.

Again, you claim your specific God is the reason human good exists. So what. Other people with other religions claim their clubs are.

(January 17, 2019 at 9:41 am)Acrobat Wrote:

Quote:

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(January 17, 2019 at 9:19 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Quick question:  Does morality come from God or through God?

Boru

Neither, I'm a platonist in my moral view. 

The Good is God.

Then you have no objection to an atheism-based objective morality.  Thank you.

Boru

(January 17, 2019 at 9:54 am)Brian37 Wrote: Again, you claim your specific God is the reason human good exists. So what. Other people with other religions claim their clubs are.

No, I never made that claim, perhaps you've mistaken me with someone else?

What I would claim is that concepts like morally Good, have no real meaning, absent of a transcendent moral order.

See if you can spot the pattern.

"The Good is Allah"...... Still  make sense to you?

"The Good is Yahweh" Still make sense to you?

"The Good is Buddha"... Still make sense to you?

"The Good is Brahma(Hindu top God)" Still make sense to you?

....................................

Me, "The good is in our behaviors, and most humans are capable of doing and being good. I simply don't assign our behaviors to old mythology."


Now, if you can accept that those outside your position are capable of being good and doing good, GREAT. I'd agree. That says to me that religion isn't doing it, anymore than a lucky bat is giving a baseball player home runs.

There is not one nation, friend or foe alike that does not have hospitals or prisons. There has never been in our species history a 100% conflict free period of any religion. Every religion and nation in our species history has had conflicts within and with outsiders. 

That says to me morality isn't magic, isn't being handed down from a divine place, or our spirit ancestors. That says to me humans can be capable of both good and bad, compassion and cruelty, and neither require magic or old mythology to explain. It is still up to humans how we chose to interact with each other.

(January 17, 2019 at 9:58 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Then you have no objection to an atheism-based objective morality.  Thank you.

There is no such thing.

Unless atheism-based moral nihilism is false, than atheism-based objective morality can't exist.

(January 17, 2019 at 10:05 am)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 17, 2019 at 9:58 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Then you have no objection to an atheism-based objective morality.  Thank you.

There is no such thing.

Unless atheism-based moral nihilism is false, than atheism-based objective morality can't exist.

Then whence does your 'transcendent moral order' come from?

Boru

(January 17, 2019 at 10:02 am)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 17, 2019 at 9:54 am)Brian37 Wrote: Again, you claim your specific God is the reason human good exists. So what. Other people with other religions claim their clubs are.

No, I never made that claim, perhaps you've mistaken me with someone else?

What I would claim is that concepts like morally Good, have no real meaning, absent of a transcendent moral order.

"Transcendent moral order"?

^^^^^ Ok, Yoda did it, and he is the cause of human morality.

Or, maybe the reality is our species displays both cruelty and compassion and there is no divine magical sky hero causing either, and it is still up to humans what we do?

(January 17, 2019 at 10:03 am)Brian37 Wrote: See if you can spot the pattern.

"The Good is Allah"...... Still  make sense to you?

"The Good is Yahweh" Still make sense to you?

"The Good is Buddha"... Still make sense to you?

"The Good is Brahma(Hindu top God)" Still make sense to you?

It seems that this pattern is just changing the name, and nothing more.

Like

Peter is Pedro
Peter is Piere.

If it means something more than a name change, like The Good is also Allah, and not Yahweh, or Brahma. Then you’re actually adding additional beliefs to it, and not just additional beliefs, but beliefs that distinguish them from each other.

Quote:Me, "The good is in our behaviors, and most humans are capable of doing and being good.

I’m not sure what that means, our behaviors are all over the place, some good some not so good. Our behaviors are merely what is, good is how we ought to be, not merely how we are.

Quote:That says to me morality isn't magic, isn't being handed down from a divine place, or our spirit ancestors. That says to me humans can be capable of both good and bad, compassion and cruelty, and neither require magic or old mythology to explain. It is still up to humans how we chose to interact with each other.

I don’t think morality is magic, I think it’s exceptionally hard and difficult, that what is Good is always on the verge of being trampled and crucified. A child’s innocence and kindness, exist in a world that continually tries to take it from them.

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(January 17, 2019 at 10:05 am)Acrobat Wrote:

(January 17, 2019 at 9:58 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Then you have no objection to an atheism-based objective morality.  Thank you.

There is no such thing.

Unless atheism-based moral nihilism is false, than atheism-based objective morality can't exist.

It's always existed. Everything comes from it.