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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 23, 2019 at 9:56 pm
(January 23, 2019 at 9:42 pm)bennyboy Wrote: I'd support the evolution of consciousness-- defined as the ability to interact with the environment via sensory input, processing, and behavioral output with enough complexity to adapt to environmental pressures-- as being pretty obvious. That includes the idea of the evolution of DNA, of the brain, and so on.
I'd even say that the particular way in which humans experience must be unique to the sensory apparatus, including the brain.
But I'm really not convinced that in a material monist Universe, there's any place for subjective awareness-- unless we're talking about material which is intrinsically mental in nature. I'd very much look to panpsychism or idealism as better world views, especially given some of the things we know about QM. I'm still not sure what's informing you here, in any of this? However the world happens to be.....subjective experience fits. Subjective experience is the purportedly known quantity in this question....and the status of the universe the conjecture?
Quote:And here's the bonus. In panpsychism, evolution of mind makes sense.
In some specific way that some other explanation doesn't..or...?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 24, 2019 at 12:16 am
Yep. Panpsychism places mind at an elemental position, which means you don't have to speculate on what magi-special system of organization mind appears out of an acognitive physical system.
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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 24, 2019 at 9:57 am
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 9:58 am by The Grand Nudger.)
That makes the evolution of mind make sense how, and how...... particularly....compared to some other explanation?
Putting something on a pedestal isn't an explanation at all, nor does it make anything make more sense..it's just putting something on a pedestal. Meanwhile, it appears to be factually untrue. Mind does not seem to occupy any elemental position whatsoever. I'm not seeing the allure.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 24, 2019 at 10:15 am
(January 24, 2019 at 9:57 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: That makes the evolution of mind make sense how, and how...... particularly....compared to some other explanation?
It removes the problem of supervenience of unlike properties-- qualia is not like physical material, and no properties of physical material can so far as we know be sensibly mapped to qualia.
In a panpsychic world view, consciousness is elemental, and it is the FORMS which it may collectively take which make something like human perception.
Quote:Putting something on a pedestal isn't an explanation at all, nor does it make anything make more sense..it's just putting something on a pedestal. Meanwhile, it appears to be factually untrue. Mind does not seem to occupy any elemental position whatsoever. I'm not seeing the allure.
Mind doesn't seem to be anything at all, except the capacity to subjectively experience.
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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 24, 2019 at 10:22 am
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 10:26 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 24, 2019 at 10:15 am)bennyboy Wrote: (January 24, 2019 at 9:57 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: That makes the evolution of mind make sense how, and how...... particularly....compared to some other explanation?
It removes the problem of supervenience of unlike properties-- qualia is not like physical material, and no properties of physical material can so far as we know be sensibly mapped to qualia. Are you sure that qualia is unlike physical material? Are you sure that qualia -isn't- ..literally..physical material? You aren't telling me how this position helps something to make sense, you're telling me that you think it conforms to your assertions and beliefs about qualia.
Quote:In a panpsychic world view, consciousness is elemental, and it is the FORMS which it may collectively take which make something like human perception.
Is this fundamentally different from a computational understanding?
Quote:Mind doesn't seem to be anything at all, except the capacity to subjectively experience.
Why do you think that? My mind is doing alot more, most of which I'm not actually experiencing. Qualia never being more than just the tip of that iceberg. I suspect that yours is too..what with being a human, like me. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 24, 2019 at 11:16 am
(January 24, 2019 at 10:22 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: Why do you think that? My mind is doing alot more, most of which I'm not actually experiencing.
No, it's not.
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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 24, 2019 at 11:37 am
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 11:43 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Sort of an anomalous statement, you have to appreciate that? No it's not what, doing alot more..or alot more that I don't actually experience?
Both of those things are pretty well established? Qualia isn't a full representation of our field of observation. That's why people don't see dem gorillaz. A massive chunk of the operation of our mind (from internal monitoring/control to decisionmaking) occurs outside of our conscious notice or experience. You're not consciously experiencing thinking, "breathe, breathe, breathe" right now, I assume? I bet you don't remember deciding to forget or not notice, either, lol.
I'd be pretty fucked without the operations of my mind - like...laying in a bed with tubes everywhere? You?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 24, 2019 at 11:58 am
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 11:58 am by bennyboy.)
Your mind is not doing anything that you don't experience. It's not "breath breathe, breathing." It's not making your heart beat. Your brain is doing those things-- not your mind.
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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 24, 2019 at 12:00 pm
(This post was last modified: January 24, 2019 at 12:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Not seeing the distinction? It seems like you've simply cordoned off a single bit of brain..qualia, and decided that this and only this is mind. Well, sure, if you do that then you'll be able to say whatever it is you like..but none of it will competently modify or threaten the truth of any statement I've made. I don't know how a productive discussion can be had?
You call all of the rest of that stuff, "not mind", well..okay..but I don't..and since we're not disputing the content of those facts I offered (that qualia is not a full representation of your field of observation, and that many things are occurring in the absence of any conscious experience of them), I wonder why you do?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: why do we enjoy poetry From the perspective of neuroscience?
January 25, 2019 at 12:04 am
(This post was last modified: January 25, 2019 at 12:07 am by bennyboy.)
(January 24, 2019 at 12:00 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: Not seeing the distinction? It seems like you've simply cordoned off a single bit of brain..qualia,
Stop right there. Qualia is not "a single bit of brain." It's the subjective experience of what things are like.
(January 24, 2019 at 12:00 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote: You call all of the rest of that stuff, "not mind", well..okay..but I don't..and since we're not disputing the content of those facts I offered (that qualia is not a full representation of your field of observation, and that many things are occurring in the absence of any conscious experience of them), I wonder why you do?
I'm fine with terms like "subconscious" or "unconscious mind." However I wouldn't use the term "observation" anywhere near them.
As for things occurring absent consciousness-- do they? If time is a dimension, and mind is the experience of moving through that dimension, then there are no events at all without a subjective observer. Essentially, without subjective observation, you have a singularity.
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