(February 26, 2019 at 7:11 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Pagans didn't take notice of Jesus because he wasn't dressed up as a French maid wearing fishnets.

I doubt that even aliens would find that joke to be funny.

(February 26, 2019 at 10:03 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(February 26, 2019 at 3:53 am)Godscreated Wrote: Herod was a coward who was also smart enough to stay out of a situation that could cause him problems with Rome.

GC

---

 Why, there were no newspapers ,TVs, radios or anything else that would cause these things to spread far and wide, they would fade as they were told because the people then did not care to believe them. They stayed in and around Jerusalem because it was a local thing and a local religion, Jesus himself said, "you have seen my miracles and still you do not believe," and He was not just speaking about himself He was also speaking about the miracles.

---

As I said in the other thread, they were not interested because they had their own religious beliefs. The Jewish priest never wrote about Him and He faced them many times even at their behesting. They knew He was a real person, they feared Him and rightly so. After what seemed to be His end they were not going to cause this problem they had to live on, yet He has for 2000 years. Also, not many people could read or write in those days and those who could had something to prove or motivate and those outside of Jesus circle of people wanted this man's reputation to die as they though He had died. Here was their attitude see not, hear not, know not, the end, but the story was just beginning. Jesus surrounded himself with literate men that could pass along His story after He was gone from this world, it was no accident and now we have the rest of the story.

GC

That's not what the Gospels claim:

Quote:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them. (Matthew 4:24, NIV)

 News about a person could easily spread over a distance, but without the many believing what they heard. Israel and Syria put together are still quite small, they are not near the size of my state. That verse is referring to the ones who actually believed. Jesus told the priest and the people that they had seen the miracles and still did not believe. They did not believe the miracles were real nor did they believe He was the Son of God. They had preconceived notions about who and what the Son of God should be like and how He should act, they failed to understand the words given to them by God.

GC

---

(February 26, 2019 at 8:40 am)Yonadav Wrote:

(February 26, 2019 at 3:53 am)Godscreated Wrote: Herod was a coward who was also smart enough to stay out of a situation that could cause him problems with Rome.

 

Sorry, dude. The only way that Herod sending that guy back to the Romans makes any sense is if your guy wasn't Jewish.

 You are wrong, Herod showed his cowardness by playing into the hands of Rome and he didn't want to upset the apple cart and lose his cushy place. The priest wanted Jesus dead and they knew the only way that would happen was at the hand of Rome. Herod wasn't going to buck the system of the priest, they had much power in Israel.

GC

(February 27, 2019 at 3:03 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(February 26, 2019 at 10:03 am)Jehanne Wrote: That's not what the Gospels claim:

 News about a person could easily spread over a distance, but without the many believing what they heard. Israel and Syria put together are still quite small, they are not near the size of my state. That verse is referring to the ones who actually believed. Jesus told the priest and the people that they had seen the miracles and still did not believe. They did not believe the miracles were real nor did they believe He was the Son of God. They had preconceived notions about who and what the Son of God should be like and how He should act, they failed to understand the words given to them by God.

GC

---

Maybe they did not believe him because they recognized his "miracles" to be a sham, a dime-a-dozen so-called "miracle workers" in 1st century Palestine?

(February 28, 2019 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(February 27, 2019 at 3:03 am)Godscreated Wrote:  News about a person could easily spread over a distance, but without the many believing what they heard. Israel and Syria put together are still quite small, they are not near the size of my state. That verse is referring to the ones who actually believed. Jesus told the priest and the people that they had seen the miracles and still did not believe. They did not believe the miracles were real nor did they believe He was the Son of God. They had preconceived notions about who and what the Son of God should be like and how He should act, they failed to understand the words given to them by God.

GC

---

Maybe they did not believe him because they recognized his "miracles" to be a sham, a dime-a-dozen so-called "miracle workers" in 1st century Palestine?

 
Quite possibly. 

Jewish tradition has a long history of prophets performing miracles. I suspect Jesus' miracles may have been underwhelming when compared with Moses, or even father Abraham, to whom god spoke  directly , and who sent an angel to stop Abraham killing Isaac .

Is it just me, or does anyone else  see just how terrified of his god Abraham must have been to be ready to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac.?

YHWH was an  arsehole; the Torah is full of bits such as people fearing god, and of him saying "---for I am a jealous god"  (Exodus 20:5)

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"


Not only do I think this is literal, I think it also shows Judaism was not a monotheistic religion at that time. E

(February 28, 2019 at 6:41 pm)fredd bear Wrote:

(February 28, 2019 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote: Maybe they did not believe him because they recognized his "miracles" to be a sham, a dime-a-dozen so-called "miracle workers" in 1st century Palestine?

 
Quite possibly. 

Jewish tradition has a long history of prophets performing miracles. I suspect Jesus' miracles may have been underwhelming when compared with Moses, or even father Abraham, to whom god spoke  directly , and who sent an angel to stop Abraham killing Isaac .

Is it just me, or does anyone else  see just how terrified of his god Abraham must have been to be ready to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac.?

YHWH was an  arsehole; the Torah is full of bits such as people fearing god, and of him saying "---for I am a jealous god"  (Exodus 20:5)

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"


Not only do I think this is literal, I think it also shows Judaism was not a monotheistic religion at that time. E

Apollonios of Tyana, a contemporary of Jesus, performed miracles:

Apollonius of Tyana

(February 28, 2019 at 10:36 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(February 28, 2019 at 6:41 pm)fredd bear Wrote:  
Quite possibly. 

Jewish tradition has a long history of prophets performing miracles. I suspect Jesus' miracles may have been underwhelming when compared with Moses, or even father Abraham, to whom god spoke  directly , and who sent an angel to stop Abraham killing Isaac .

Is it just me, or does anyone else  see just how terrified of his god Abraham must have been to be ready to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac.?

YHWH was an  arsehole; the Torah is full of bits such as people fearing god, and of him saying "---for I am a jealous god"  (Exodus 20:5)

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"


Not only do I think this is literal, I think it also shows Judaism was not a monotheistic religion at that time. E

Apollonios of Tyana, a contemporary of Jesus, performed miracles:

Apollonius of Tyana

 I wasn't thinking of him, but he's great example. He had a trick wherein he flew around the top of a tower.   Thanks for the link, fascinating reading

The earliest example of a magic trick of which I'm aware comes from Egypt. I think it's the one where a goose's head is cut off and reattached.  Egyptian court magicians are also mentioned in Exodis. I think Moses replicated their trick of turning a staff into a snake, but was apparently more adroit..

There are many examples in the ancient world from having  little people hiding  statues to get people to believe the statue spoke to them, to the magic self opening temple doors built by Hiro of Alexandria

The concept of magic in the ancient world was very different from ours. It was implicitly believed by the masses, and simply part of very day life.EG medicines often included all kinds of rituals, spells ,idols, and talismans . Much like Christianity today. (most especially Catholicism)

(February 28, 2019 at 6:41 pm)fredd bear Wrote:

(February 28, 2019 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote: Maybe they did not believe him because they recognized his "miracles" to be a sham, a dime-a-dozen so-called "miracle workers" in 1st century Palestine?

 
Quite possibly. 

Jewish tradition has a long history of prophets performing miracles. I suspect Jesus' miracles may have been underwhelming when compared with Moses, or even father Abraham, to whom god spoke  directly , and who sent an angel to stop Abraham killing Isaac .

Well, we know there were apocalyptic jewish preachers/leaders around at the time. I suppose there may have been so many that it didn't rate as newsworthy anymore.

(February 28, 2019 at 6:41 pm)fredd bear Wrote: Is it just me, or does anyone else  see just how terrified of his god Abraham must have been to be ready to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac.?

It's a creepy story. Even creepier are the christian attempts not only to gloss over it, but to present it as a moral tale in favour of obedience to gunderscored.

(February 28, 2019 at 6:41 pm)fredd bear Wrote: YHWH was an  arsehole; the Torah is full of bits such as people fearing god, and of him saying "---for I am a jealous god"  (Exodus 20:5)

As a mono-god, what was he jealous of, exactly?

(February 28, 2019 at 6:41 pm)fredd bear Wrote: "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

An implicit admission of competing gods and a statement of an insidious doctrine that one inherits the sins of others that one could do nothing about anyway.

(February 28, 2019 at 6:41 pm)fredd bear Wrote: Not only do I think this is literal, I think it also shows Judaism was not a monotheistic religion at that time. E

Course not. There was a pantheon at the time. The whole flood myth was lifted from Gilgamesh, for example.

(February 28, 2019 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(February 27, 2019 at 3:03 am)Godscreated Wrote:  News about a person could easily spread over a distance, but without the many believing what they heard. Israel and Syria put together are still quite small, they are not near the size of my state. That verse is referring to the ones who actually believed. Jesus told the priest and the people that they had seen the miracles and still did not believe. They did not believe the miracles were real nor did they believe He was the Son of God. They had preconceived notions about who and what the Son of God should be like and how He should act, they failed to understand the words given to them by God.

GC

---

Maybe they did not believe him because they recognized his "miracles" to be a sham, a dime-a-dozen so-called "miracle workers" in 1st century Palestine?

  Proof they thought it was a sham, there's no indication they were believed to be shames by those who rejected Him, as a matter of fact He healed people known to others to be ill and cured of that particular illness. 

GC

(March 1, 2019 at 4:07 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(February 28, 2019 at 10:09 am)Jehanne Wrote: Maybe they did not believe him because they recognized his "miracles" to be a sham, a dime-a-dozen so-called "miracle workers" in 1st century Palestine?

  Proof they thought it was a sham, there's no indication they were believed to be shames by those who rejected Him, as a matter of fact He healed people known to others to be ill and cured of that particular illness. 

GC

How do you know that?

(February 23, 2019 at 1:19 pm)Jehanne Wrote: According to Professor Bart Ehrman, Lecture 10, in his New Testament Great Courses series, modern scholars possess hundreds of pagan (non-Christian, non-Jewish) sources from the 1st century.  Why is it that none of these sources even mention the existence of Jesus?

None of these pagan sources mention Pilate either, or hardly any jewish religious figures at the time like Elder Hillel, or any of the other numerous messiah claimants strung up by Rome.   

Why?

Perhaps because writing was an expensive enterprise, so why waste it writing about irrelevant figures, or on news reports that have no real importance to the pagan communities? Their lack of mentioning of any of above mentioned figures, reveals their lack of interest in doing so.