(April 16, 2019 at 8:11 am)IWNKYAAIMI Wrote: If you've got something to say, say it and move on.

Yes, this makes sense to me. 

It's a discussion forum, so we have the right to say what we think. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to go on and on. 

Moving on is important too.

(April 16, 2019 at 5:57 pm)Belaqua Wrote:

(April 16, 2019 at 8:11 am)IWNKYAAIMI Wrote: If you've got something to say, say it and move on.

Yes, this makes sense to me. 

It's a discussion forum, so we have the right to say what we think. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea to go on and on. 

Moving on is important too.

Take your own advice.

(April 16, 2019 at 8:11 am)IWNKYAAIMI Wrote: I always feel better about myself when I have stood my ground, and I don't have to lose control of myself to do so.

The not losing control part is important, I think. If it's a situation where standing your ground is important -- if it's your career or something at stake -- then that's necessary. But in a case where standing one's ground gains nothing and only prolongs vituperation, I don't see any good for it. Control would imply that one knows when standing one's ground makes a difference, and when it just becomes an insult match.

Quote:I've been in situations where I've bitten my tongue, but biting your tongue too often I find tends to make things build up inside, and when things come to a head and you let it all out at once, that's when your self control suffers. If you've got something to say, say it and move on.

This is what I jokingly call Freud's Hydraulic Theory of the Emotions. He often wrote as if emotion was a fluid that builds up and needs to be released from its storage tank. I think this metaphor has become so common that people don't imagine an alternative -- there may be times when the emotion doesn't have to be spewed out all over everybody. 

But again, if saying it makes some difference, fine. 

And I was thinking today on the bus about Marcus Aurelius. He was the most powerful man in the Roman Empire for quite a while. To suggest that he was a doormat because he thought one should control oneself is a bit comical. I know you didn't mean it seriously, but it was a funny image. To say that always behaving well necessarily makes one a doormat seems to me a dangerous moral commitment. It almost could lead to the belief that not being a doormat demands repayment in kind for every imagined slight. That's the kind of thing that leads Americans to shoot each other over how they stack their garbage cans.

Are we caring yet??

(April 17, 2019 at 4:45 am)Belaqua Wrote: The not losing control part is important, I think. If it's a situation where standing your ground is important -- if it's your career or something at stake -- then that's necessary. But in a case where standing one's ground gains nothing and only prolongs vituperation, I don't see any good for it. Control would imply that one knows when standing one's ground makes a difference, and when it just becomes an insult match.

Yeah, that's why I said that I sometimes bite my tongue. I'm able to recognise when it is appropriate to stand my ground, I wasn't really talking about petty internet arguments.

Quote:This is what I jokingly call Freud's Hydraulic Theory of the Emotions. He often wrote as if emotion was a fluid that builds up and needs to be released from its storage tank. I think this metaphor has become so common that people don't imagine an alternative -- there may be times when the emotion doesn't have to be spewed out all over everybody. 

But again, if saying it makes some difference, fine. 

What is your alternative? Bottling up feelings IMO is never a good way to go, as I said before for me it works, I feel better getting things off my chest and in my experience it stops molehills from becoming mountains.

Quote:And I was thinking today on the bus about Marcus Aurelius.

Whatever floats your boat

Quote:To say that always behaving well necessarily makes one a doormat seems to me a dangerous moral commitment. It almost could lead to the belief that not being a doormat demands repayment in kind for every imagined slight. That's the kind of thing that leads Americans to shoot each other over how they stack their garbage cans.

I disagree. You're far more likely to lose the plot if you bottle up emotions over a period of time. Take your American dustbin neighbour shooter, if he'd only gotten things off his chest in a calm and controlled way, Dave bin stacker might still be alive today.

(April 17, 2019 at 5:28 am)IWNKYAAIMI Wrote: You're far more likely to lose the plot if you bottle up emotions over a period of time. Take your American dustbin neighbour shooter, if he'd only gotten things off his chest in a calm and controlled way, Dave bin stacker might still be alive today.

That's certainly possible! There are probably people so mad at their bosses that they'd happily shoot the next person in line at the supermarket. 

I guess what I want is mature, socially positive ways to do this. Ways that de-escalate, rather than just me taking my own pain and handing it over to someone else, so it becomes his pain.

(April 17, 2019 at 6:37 am)Belaqua Wrote:

(April 17, 2019 at 5:28 am)IWNKYAAIMI Wrote: You're far more likely to lose the plot if you bottle up emotions over a period of time. Take your American dustbin neighbour shooter, if he'd only gotten things off his chest in a calm and controlled way, Dave bin stacker might still be alive today.

That's certainly possible! There are probably people so mad at their bosses that they'd happily shoot the next person in line at the supermarket. 

I guess what I want is mature, socially positive ways to do this. Ways that de-escalate, rather than just me taking my own pain and handing it over to someone else, so it becomes his pain.

You've actually prompted me to read up a bit on this subject, seems that apart from the negative effects that bottling up emotions can have on your mental health, there's evidence that it can also affect your physical wellbeing.
Here's an article on the very subject.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic...rcent.html

(April 17, 2019 at 4:45 am)Belaqua Wrote: This is what I jokingly call Freud's Hydraulic Theory of the Emotions. He often wrote as if emotion was a fluid that builds up and needs to be released from its storage tank. I think this metaphor has become so common that people don't imagine an alternative -- there may be times when the emotion doesn't have to be spewed out all over everybody. 

That was one of Freud's really terrible ideas. In fact, the more one acts on emotions, the more such reactions become habitual.

I think the key issue is not whether one experiences an emotion or not, but whether the emotion is really both proportional and justified. Many emotional reactions are cued by appearances only, and appearances can be and often are incorrect. Thinking through situations takes longer, so our reason is usually playing catch-up with our emotions. That means it's usually better to delay before one responds with emotion. Often the emotion dissipates when it is perceived to be groundless or disproportionate, especially in ambiguous situations.

I remember one guy who worked in the shop at the first company where I was employed. He was constantly having temper tantrums about one thing or another, to the point where people tried to avoid him. If I remember the story correctly, he was shot dead by his son-in-law. So I would guess the expression of many emotions is more harmful than helpful. Again, it depends on the situation.

(April 17, 2019 at 6:56 am)IWNKYAAIMI Wrote:

(April 17, 2019 at 6:37 am)Belaqua Wrote: That's certainly possible! There are probably people so mad at their bosses that they'd happily shoot the next person in line at the supermarket. 

I guess what I want is mature, socially positive ways to do this. Ways that de-escalate, rather than just me taking my own pain and handing it over to someone else, so it becomes his pain.

You've actually prompted me to read up a bit on this subject, seems that apart from the negative effects that bottling up emotions can have on your mental health, there's evidence that it can also affect your physical wellbeing.
Here's an article on the very subject.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic...rcent.html

and @Thoreauvian

No question, I agree that the management of emotion is a crucial topic. The degree to which we have to expel bad feelings, and the foolishness of people who expel every little thing the moment they feel it, is a hard thing to calculate. Failure at either will get you on Dr. Phil. 

This is another of Freud's metaphors, I think: he talked about these things in terms of an "economy." How much we spend, how much we invest, etc.

Probably I've mentioned the Nicomachean Ethics before. This is all spelled out in that book. Spewing out -- or even feeling -- too much or too little of any emotion is considered to be a moral problem and, I have no doubt, can lead to health problems as well. Aristotle says that the wise man operates in the middle path, not too much not too little. And how does the wise man know how much is too much? Because he's wise. Which means there is no practical advice at all -- you just have to be wise. 

But I don't want to lose sight of my earlier point: I want to be a rational and kind person because it's good to be a rational and kind person. Not because the person I happen to be talking with is judged to deserve or not deserve it. If some oddball on the Internet can cause me to become an unkind person just by saying odd stuff, then I'm too easily manipulable. (And of course this is my goal, not something I claim for myself now.)

(April 17, 2019 at 7:59 am)Belaqua Wrote: Probably I've mentioned the Nicomachean Ethics before. This is all spelled out in that book. Spewing out -- or even feeling -- too much or too little of any emotion is considered to be a moral problem and, I have no doubt, can lead to health problems as well. Aristotle says that the wise man operates in the middle path, not too much not too little. And how does the wise man know how much is too much? Because he's wise. Which means there is no practical advice at all -- you just have to be wise. 

Having spent a large portion of my life down the "wisdom" rabbit hole, I would like to add that I don't think we can ever escape the limitations of our perceptions. In other words, we all have certain batting averages of accurate versus inaccurate responses. At best, "wise people" have good batting averages. They will still make mistakes. So if they try to rationalize those mistakes to appear wiser than they are, they are actually decreasing their batting averages by trying to mislead others. Following up and correcting errors is important, and is just about all we can do.