Been doing a bit of reading on the Punic Wars.  It seems that the Carthaginians were mainly interested in business, helling around and having a good time.  The Romans, on the other hand, lived hard, frugal lives and practiced the Latin virtues of gravitas, pietas, simplicitas, and adultery.

War was inevitable.

Boru

(June 16, 2019 at 11:08 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Been doing a bit of reading on the Punic Wars.  It seems that the Carthaginians were mainly interested in business, helling around and having a good time.  The Romans, on the other hand, lived hard, frugal lives and practiced the Latin virtues of gravitas, pietas, simplicitas, and adultery.

War was inevitable.

Boru

The Carthaginians controlled the Med and so were in a good position to thwart any roman expansion until the romans copied their ships.
They were rivals for power in the same area, the difference in life style was of little importance, look what rome did to anyone that bordered them.

War was inevitable, but only due to proximity.

If the Chinese had been closer the romans would have fought them too.

Carthago delenda est.

Probably due to too much partying.

History, n. An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.

Ambrose Bierce

I was a working historian for a few decades. I concentrated on facts.

(June 16, 2019 at 12:32 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(June 16, 2019 at 11:08 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Been doing a bit of reading on the Punic Wars.  It seems that the Carthaginians were mainly interested in business, helling around and having a good time.  The Romans, on the other hand, lived hard, frugal lives and practiced the Latin virtues of gravitas, pietas, simplicitas, and adultery.

War was inevitable.

Boru

The Carthaginians controlled the Med and so were in a good position to thwart any roman expansion until the romans copied their ships.
They were rivals for power in the same area, the difference in life style was of little importance, look what rome did to anyone that bordered them.

War was inevitable, but only due to proximity.

If the Chinese had been closer the romans would have fought them too.

I think it also may have had something to do with the Romans stranding Hamilcar in Sicily for several years, which made him look rather silly.  This also made him so mad that he dashed right out and lost the First Punic War.

Boru

(June 16, 2019 at 11:08 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Been doing a bit of reading on the Punic Wars.  It seems that the Carthaginians were mainly interested in business, helling around and having a good time.  The Romans, on the other hand, lived hard, frugal lives and practiced the Latin virtues of gravitas, pietas, simplicitas, and adultery.

War was inevitable.

Boru

They had a natural wall up north. Why not conquer the economic bastion that was cartage?

(June 16, 2019 at 11:08 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Been doing a bit of reading on the Punic Wars.  It seems that the Carthaginians were mainly interested in business, helling around and having a good time.  The Romans, on the other hand, lived hard, frugal lives and practiced the Latin virtues of gravitas, pietas, simplicitas, and adultery.

War was inevitable.

Boru

That’s the Roman propaganda - Roman simple virtues triumphant over Carthaginian perfidy and decadence, which is in no small part an artifact of later Romans trying to sooth the deep trauma experienced and long lasting insecurity inflicted when Hannibal brought Romans to the conviction that Rome's final demise in the hands of Carthage could be very near.

The reality seems to have more to do with Romans and Carthaginians  having filled all the vacuum available after the Greek city states in southern Italy and Sicily had declined in power and the Hellenistic powers the rose after Alexander had withdrawn, they had no other enemies in their own environs to confront than each other.   Rome triumphed because Rome had a far larger manpower pool, and a political system fighting a 3rd century equivalent of total war and thus willing and able to draw its manpower reserve down almost to the last without giving up, while Carthage fought a limited war and its political system proved unwilling to thrown the last measure onto the balance to seal the deal when  prowess of her generals had brought her to the very cusp of final victory.

(June 17, 2019 at 9:23 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 16, 2019 at 11:08 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Been doing a bit of reading on the Punic Wars.  It seems that the Carthaginians were mainly interested in business, helling around and having a good time.  The Romans, on the other hand, lived hard, frugal lives and practiced the Latin virtues of gravitas, pietas, simplicitas, and adultery.

War was inevitable.

Boru

That’s the Roman propaganda - Roman simple virtues triumphant over Carthaginian perfidy and decadence, which is in no small part an artifact of later Romans trying to sooth the deep trauma experienced and long lasting insecurity inflicted when Hannibal brought Romans to the conviction that Rome's final demise in the hands of Carthage could be very near.

The reality seems to have more to do with Romans and Carthaginians  having filled all the vacuum available after the Greek city states in southern Italy and Sicily had declined in power and the Hellenistic powers the rose after Alexander had withdrawn, they had no other enemies in their own environs to confront than each other.   Rome triumphed because Rome had a far larger manpower pool, and a political system fighting a 3rd century equivalent of total war and thus willing and able to draw its manpower reserve down almost to the last without giving up, while Carthage fought a limited war and its political system proved unwilling to thrown the last measure onto the balance to seal the deal when  prowess of her generals had brought her to the very cusp of final victory.

Actually, Rome triumphed (eventually) because it had a largely citizen army, whereas the Carthaginian army depended largely on mercenaries.  Towards the end, both powers had liquidity problems.  This didn't matter so much for Rome, but mercenaries have a tendency to pack up and go home when they aren't paid.

Additionally, Rome copied Carthaginian naval technology (with a few tweaks, such as the crow), while Carthage didn't bother to learn anything from Roman land tactics.  If they had, things might have gone differently.

Also, elephants have never been a particularly effective military tool.

Boru

(June 17, 2019 at 1:04 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 17, 2019 at 9:23 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: That’s the Roman propaganda - Roman simple virtues triumphant over Carthaginian perfidy and decadence, which is in no small part an artifact of later Romans trying to sooth the deep trauma experienced and long lasting insecurity inflicted when Hannibal brought Romans to the conviction that Rome's final demise in the hands of Carthage could be very near.

The reality seems to have more to do with Romans and Carthaginians  having filled all the vacuum available after the Greek city states in southern Italy and Sicily had declined in power and the Hellenistic powers the rose after Alexander had withdrawn, they had no other enemies in their own environs to confront than each other.   Rome triumphed because Rome had a far larger manpower pool, and a political system fighting a 3rd century equivalent of total war and thus willing and able to draw its manpower reserve down almost to the last without giving up, while Carthage fought a limited war and its political system proved unwilling to thrown the last measure onto the balance to seal the deal when  prowess of her generals had brought her to the very cusp of final victory.

Actually, Rome triumphed (eventually) because it had a largely citizen army, whereas the Carthaginian army depended largely on mercenaries.  Towards the end, both powers had liquidity problems.  This didn't matter so much for Rome, but mercenaries have a tendency to pack up and go home when they aren't paid.

Additionally, Rome copied Carthaginian naval technology (with a few tweaks, such as the crow), while Carthage didn't bother to learn anything from Roman land tactics.  If they had, things might have gone differently.

Also, elephants have never been a particularly effective military tool.

Boru

The Carthaginian horsemen had changed sides to Rome.