(August 19, 2019 at 6:13 pm)Lek Wrote: So the fact that scientists have a higher than average percentage of atheists goes against the argument that learning more about science should lead one to God. I have read where it has led some to God and I feel that it should, but I'll concede this one.

No, it argues against your statement about Einstein, "His belief in some kind of god came from his observation of the universe, such as the order of it.".

I made the point, that if that were the case, a continually higher percentage of physicists should be becoming theists, or at least deists, as more and more is discovered about the universe. When it seems the oposite seems to be the case.

Yeah. I think you killed that argument. At least Al and I saw something more.

(August 19, 2019 at 12:21 pm)Lek Wrote:

(August 18, 2019 at 5:41 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: My first questions would be, "How did you determine the attributes of the god character in the book ?"

In a Spiderman comic his strength is amazing and he's able to lift about 20 tons (give or take)
I can't measure his strength because he's a fictional character.

In much the same way, the character of god appears to be just as fictional with writers making up his attributes.

If the god character is real, then you should be able to determine the attributes, unless it's like determining the number of single celled creatures on a distant planet that we haven't discovered yet. (Unknowable at this time)

Albert Einstein, who studied science and the physical universe as much as anyone ever, believed in God.  It wasn't a theist type god, but rather a pantheistic kind of god.  He would never call himself an atheist, but uncomfortably settled with agnostic.  His belief in some kind of god came from his observation of the universe, such as the order of it.  He never proved the existence of a god, but nonetheless believed in one.  He, like myself and the apostle Paul (Romans 1) agree that the existence of God can be realized by studying the universe.  It's not proof by the scientific method, but rather a revelation from that god which is all.

What you're doing here is looking at the universe and imagining a god. This is your imagination at work, in much the same way a child looks at a full grown tree and imagines invisible elves planting seeds and taking care of those seeds to help them grow into a strong tree.

The child didn't determine that elves could do such things. It imagined that elves had these attributes.

You didn't determine that a god had those attributes.
You imagined that it did.

I don't think so. Belief in God has been pervasive in mankind as far back we can detect. It's not just a figment of someone's imagination. People imagine all kinds of things, but the majority of people from every corner of the world, have not embraced and carried on the belief in pink elephants.

The number of people that believe a thing is true has no bearing on whether that thing is actually true.

You look at the universe and you imagine a god is behind it all, in the same EXACT way a child looks at a tree and imagines elves.

There is absolutely no difference.

(August 19, 2019 at 10:04 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't think so. Belief in God has been pervasive in mankind as far back we can detect. It's not just a figment of someone's imagination.  People imagine all kinds of things, but the majority of people from every corner of the world, have not embraced and carried on the belief in pink elephants.

No, it’s a calculated fraud.

Even in fraud there is evolution, selection, the survival and propagation of the most successfully deceptive and coercive.  Pink elephants just didn’t make the cut and has been outcompeted.

(August 19, 2019 at 10:47 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(August 19, 2019 at 10:04 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't think so. Belief in God has been pervasive in mankind as far back we can detect. It's not just a figment of someone's imagination.  People imagine all kinds of things, but the majority of people from every corner of the world, have not embraced and carried on the belief in pink elephants.

No, it’s a calculated fraud.

Even in fraud there is evolution, selection, the survival and propagation of the most successfully deceptive and coercive.  Pink elephants just didn’t make the cut and has been outcompeted.

Not to mention that very few have believed in the same god the same way.

Yes, there are whole groups who are called “Christians”, “Muslims”, or whatever, but how many different denominations are there of each?

And I doubt if Ugh the Neanderthal believed his angry god of thunder was the Christian god.

The Abrahamic god is certainly a logical contradiction. A deistic god is harder to paint as illogical because we don't know what characteristics this god is supposed to have.

However, we do know that there is no such thing as something that is immaterial and there is no such thing as something that is supernatural. So, certainly if there is a god, it must be some material, natural being or thing.

(August 19, 2019 at 10:04 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't think so. Belief in God has been pervasive in mankind as far back we can detect. It's not just a figment of someone's imagination. People imagine all kinds of things, but the majority of people from every corner of the world, have not embraced and carried on the belief in pink elephants.

God is an evolving concept in tune with how the human mind has culturally evolved over a timespan involving various cultures and traditions, generally having started out as very primitive conceptions of gods to more sophisticated types that the intellectual elites among believers have carefully crafted over the past recent centuries.

In no manner has any such God shown to be more than just a product of human imagination and creativity. And appeal to a majority is a fallacy, especially if we're talking a majority of laypeople ...

Also, the pink elephant thingy is a red herring.

(August 19, 2019 at 10:04 pm)Lek Wrote: I don't think so. Belief in God gods has been pervasive in mankind as far back we can detect. It's not just a figment of someone's imagination.  People imagine all kinds of things, but the majority of people from every corner of the world, have not embraced and carried on the belief in pink elephants.

FTFY.
Monotheism is the johnny come lately of faiths. Polytheism was the standard for a lot longer. And believed by far more people than your monotheism if argumentum ad populum is that important to you. So why are you not a polytheist?