(November 2, 2019 at 10:31 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: Bel, grow a pair and just say what you want to say.

What else does he need to say? He's been pretty clear regarding his stance from day 1, but some atheists it seems just can't accept that he thinks not all Christians are stupid.

I dont think all christians are stupid.

In fact, I never said that. Nor has anyone else on this forum said that, from what i can remember. So what exactly is he on about?

(November 2, 2019 at 10:57 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: I dont think all christians are stupid.

In fact, I never said that. Nor has anyone else on this forum said that, from what i can remember. So what exactly is he on about?

Some people are so appalled by the falsehoods and irrationalities of religion that they will write false and irrational things to oppose it. 

I was told on the old Amazon forum that any Christian in the Middle Ages who didn't believe in a flat earth would be burned at the stake. When I said, "that's not so," I was told that I'm a fake atheist attempting to spread faith in the Lord.

I've seen people assert that every sentence in the Bible began as a literal statement of fact, and if the meaning is read metaphorically today it's because such a meaning was superimposed after science proved the statement false. If I say, "that's not so," then people make up shit about me. 

Some people are anti-religion but not pro-truth.

I skimmed Russell Brand's Wikipedia page just now. He's quite a guy.

Maybe I wouldn't vote to put him in a position of power, but it looks as though our thinking is similar in some ways. Like most of us extreme left-wingers, we don't see religion per se as being the enemy. Neoliberal capitalism is what's going to kill us all, and while religion can work for good or for ill, it has been known (MLK Jr., the Dalai Lama, etc.) to be one of the few ways we can advocate values that aren't just financial.

Correct bel. Even atheists can be stupid. You hit the nail on the head.

And Russel brand is barely worth listening to on any subject. Hes arrogant when it comes to religion and even buys into the cultlike nonsense of the AA program.

Hes got an interesting life story, but thats about it. His stand up was okay, but Im a standup junkie so I love hearing anyones hour.

It takes a very, very low opinion of humanity to think that there are few ways to advocate for values that aren't financial...or to imagine that the religion has, somehow, managed to wash itself of a financial motive. It was noted long before any of the worlds current religions were a twinkle in someones eyes that religion exists, mainly, to provide a livelihood for it's priests.

Has anything changed since then?

(November 3, 2019 at 5:17 am)Belacqua Wrote: I skimmed Russell Brand's Wikipedia page just now. He's quite a guy.

Maybe I wouldn't vote to put him in a position of power, but it looks as though our thinking is similar in some ways. Like most of us extreme left-wingers, we don't see religion per se as being the enemy. Neoliberal capitalism is what's going to kill us all, and while religion can work for good or for ill, it has been known (MLK Jr., the Dalai Lama, etc.) to be one of the few ways we can advocate values that aren't just financial.

I agree that religion has some salubrious effects at times, and much of it is well-intended. I cannot agree at all that religion is a particularly effective way to push values that aren't tied to money. I was certainly disabused of that notion by my life experience. When I was a young sprout, my religion of origin was condemning "sexual sin" and "the love of money" and thought politics was beneath their lofty spiritual concerns. The exact same group, in just a generation, has transformed itself into the core of Trump's support base, and is happy to overlook his overweening greed, sexual predation and political weaponization of basically everything. Which tells me they talked a good game but they were always for sale to the highest bidder.

My brother at least wishes Trump weren't "so brash", lol. If he had ever behaved that brashly I can guarantee you he would have died by my father's hand in pretty short order!

You will probably tell me evangelicals they are a minority in Christianity (true in terms of numbers, though not influence) and that there are people who live by the same holy book who are wonderful human beings (which calls into question whether their beliefs actually had anything to do with it).

(November 4, 2019 at 6:32 pm)mordant Wrote: I cannot agree at all that religion is a particularly effective way to push values that aren't tied to money.

...

You will probably tell me evangelicals they are a minority in Christianity (true in terms of numbers, though not influence) and that there are people who live by the same holy book who are wonderful human beings (which calls into question whether their beliefs actually had anything to do with it).

Yes, very much granted...

Any religion at its worst just ties itself into the local contingent power. And when it serves as a rallying point against worldly power -- as it does in the Muslim world against US aggression -- that doesn't mean it's going to be an admirable set of values, necessarily.

Is there any particular reason to think of that as religion at it's worst, rather than it's best?

I dont even know what religion at its best would really look like... If weve already seen it... Then wow.

Even religion at its best, in some land of fantasy... Is that an effective way to teach morals and values? I dont understand how.