Quote:A row between Russia and EU countries over the causes of World War Two has escalated, with a top Russian official condemning the US ambassador to Poland.
Parliament Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin said a tweet by Ambassador Georgette Mosbacher was "insulting" to Russians and Americans.

On Monday  "Dear President Putin, Hitler and Stalin colluded to start WWII."

President Vladimir Putin says Poland and its allies are distorting history.

During a marathon news conference on 19 December, the Russian president said it was "totally unacceptable and inaccurate" to cast equal blame on Nazi leader Adolf Hitler and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin for the war's outbreak.

Mr Putin said he had requested Soviet archive documents in order to write an article on the subject - Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939 - and, in his view, to set the record straight.

He argued that the Western powers and Poland had appeased Hitler's aggression by letting him grab Czechoslovakia in 1938.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50955273

This is all news to me - I thought it was a universally accepted truth that Hitler started WW2 by invading Poland   also, let sleeping dogs lie? Stalin's army ENDED WW2 by seizing Berlin, no? So tarring them with the dirty end of the stick now over the start seems, er, beyond unhelpful to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2...ntrop_Pact

Stalin realized that the French and British could do nothing to stop Hitler from "settling the Polish problem". He therefore thought it wise to cut a deal with Hitler. He would not oppose German occupation of most of Poland if the USSR could have the eastern part. This was agreed to in a secret codicil to the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact. Without a guarantee that the Soviets wouldn't "come to Poland's aid" Hitler may not have attacked on Sept. 1, 1939.

I was hoping you'd shed some light on this one GS as I'd gathered you're something of a military historian. I really know FA about this stuff but...well, Stalin ain't looking good here now (not that he ever did, really)...there's a video embedded in the linked article in the OP describing how Stalin is largely lionised by the Putin administration...perhaps this issue over the non-aggression pact is being brought to the fore in response to that.

This page may be of interest to you. Mostly USians, but there are some major items there. http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/index.html

One level up, http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/, you'll find the "Color Books" links that provide information on communications between the various countries before and after Sept. 1., 1939.

I also have the Soviet's official response to claim they colluded with German. I'll have to dig that one if you want it. No problem with that, just not as quick as the above.

(December 31, 2019 at 11:48 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2...ntrop_Pact

Stalin realized that the French and British could do nothing to stop Hitler from "settling the Polish problem". He therefore thought it wise to cut a deal with Hitler. He would not oppose German occupation of most of Poland if the USSR could have the eastern part. This was agreed to in a secret codicil to the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact.   Without a guarantee that the Soviets wouldn't "come to Poland's aid" Hitler may not have attacked on Sept. 1, 1939.

And when the nazis invaded the west the soviets invaded the east.

(December 31, 2019 at 11:39 am)Editz Wrote:

Quote:A row between Russia and EU countries over the causes of World War Two has escalated, with a top Russian official condemning the US ambassador to Poland.
Parliament Speaker Vyacheslav Volodin said a tweet by Ambassador Georgette Mosbacher was "insulting" to Russians and Americans.

On Monday  "Dear President Putin, Hitler and Stalin colluded to start WWII."

President Vladimir Putin says Poland and its allies are distorting history.

During a marathon news conference on 19 December, the Russian president said it was "totally unacceptable and inaccurate" to cast equal blame on Nazi leader Adolf Hitler and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin for the war's outbreak.

Mr Putin said he had requested Soviet archive documents in order to write an article on the subject - Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939 - and, in his view, to set the record straight.

He argued that the Western powers and Poland had appeased Hitler's aggression by letting him grab Czechoslovakia in 1938.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50955273

This is all news to me - I thought it was a universally accepted truth that Hitler started WW2 by invading Poland   also, let sleeping dogs lie? Stalin's army ENDED WW2 by seizing Berlin, no? So tarring them with the dirty end of the stick now over the start seems, er, beyond unhelpful to me.

1.  Many historians dates the start of global conflict called WWII to Japanese invasion of southern China 2 years before the German invasion of Poland and the end of WWII to Japanese surrender aboard the USS missouri 4 month after the fall of Berlin.

2.  The declaration of war between major European powers during WWII was an reaction to german invasion of Poland.   But German invasion of Poland was the direct result of collusion between hitler and Stalin which called for both to invade Poland and then split Poland between them.

---

(December 31, 2019 at 11:48 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2...ntrop_Pact

Stalin realized that the French and British could do nothing to stop Hitler from "settling the Polish problem". He therefore thought it wise to cut a deal with Hitler. He would not oppose German occupation of most of Poland if the USSR could have the eastern part. This was agreed to in a secret codicil to the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact.   Without a guarantee that the Soviets wouldn't "come to Poland's aid" Hitler may not have attacked on Sept. 1, 1939.

It’s not so much Soviet Union not “coming to Poland’s aid” that provided hitler with the assurances he needed to invade Poland.    It is that Soviet Union, after taking half of Poland, promised to be his buddy and keep his rear safe should the Anglo-French defy hitler’s expectation and honor their security pledge to Poland that provided hitler with the assurance.

Thanks a lot GS, plenty to get me started there! Just reading the History Channel timeline of WW2 from your first link - so much there, needs proper investment of time to digest at all - but this stood out RE this topic, that two days after the NAP was signed by USSR/Nazis - August 25, 1939 - Britain and Poland sign a Mutual Assistance Treaty - quite the opposite, then....but not enough, clearly.

(December 31, 2019 at 12:24 pm)Editz Wrote: Thanks a lot GS, plenty to get me started there! Just reading the History Channel timeline of WW2 from your first link - so much there, needs proper investment of time to digest at all - but this stood out RE this topic, that two days after the NAP was signed by USSR/Nazis - August 25, 1939 - Britain and Poland sign a Mutual Assistance Treaty - quite the opposite, then....but not enough, clearly.

Britain blatantly betrayed security assurance given to Czechoslovakia only 11 month before.   As a result hitler believed the British and french had the courage of “worms” when confronted with his hard line.    So Hitler has reason to believe british and French assistances guaranty would be worth as little this time as it did 11 month ago.   The treaty with Stalin, in hitler’s mind, made it certain the British and french would be too cowered to interfere while he invaded Poland because Germany’s back is now covered and the cowardly Anglo french would have no prospect of help form the East in any war with Germany.

Well, Hitler was largely wrong about the whole "cowardly worms" thing, thankfully, as they barely hesitated. From that same History Channel timeline -

September 1, 1939 - Nazis invade Poland.

September 3, 1939 - Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany.

September 4, 1939 - British Royal Air Force attacks the German Navy.

They came, they saw, they hesitated, and finally they capitulated at Munich 11 month before, in the process chamberlain turned himself into caricature of delusion by waving a piece of paper with hitler’s signature, proclaiming it to mean “peace for our time”.

Hitler had good reason to think they would capitulate again.   If they had truly been clear headed and planned to fight with Germany’s next transgression, it would be reasonable to suppose they would have been more receptive to Stalin’s overtures to form a united front against Germany.  Instead they strung the soviets along, until the Soviets found it easier to gain some security by allying with Germany than trying to stitch together an anti-german alliance with unwilling anglofrench. 

The Russians are lying by pretending soviet pact with hitler wasn’t a major proximal cause of WWII.   But the western countries are lying by pretending their own contradictory policies towards the Soviets between Munich and Poland didn’t really give the Soviets any choice but to seek security in an accommodation with Hitler.