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Lately stuck on WW2 history.
#1
Lately stuck on WW2 history.
Again, watching a documentary on WW2. I just found out that radar caught the Japanese fighters planes on radar at Pearl Harbor, BUT dismissed it as scheduled American bombers coming in....... Talk about FUCK ME! Imagine what a blow it would have been to the Japanese fleet if they had taken the radar seriously and not dismissed it and defeated the raid?
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#2
RE: Lately stuck on WW2 history.
(December 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Again, watching a documentary on WW2. I just found out that radar caught the Japanese fighters planes on radar at Pearl Harbor, BUT dismissed it as scheduled American bombers coming in....... Talk about FUCK ME! Imagine what a blow it would have been to the Japanese fleet if they had taken the radar seriously and not dismissed it and defeated the raid?

There’s a school of thought that Roosevelt knew the attack was coming and allowed it to happen, as he wanted a pretext to get into the war. 

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#3
RE: Lately stuck on WW2 history.
I love WWII history. That's a result of hanging out with a bunch of gaming geeks in college who liked to engage in military simulations and battles for fun, and talk about the tools involved in such battles. World War 2 history is a rich source of fascination for me. Sadly, I've gotten rid of any books I had on the subject, and spend little time on the subject any more.
[Image: ak_botan_saionji_005.jpg]
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#4
RE: Lately stuck on WW2 history.
(December 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(December 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Again, watching a documentary on WW2. I just found out that radar caught the Japanese fighters planes on radar at Pearl Harbor, BUT dismissed it as scheduled American bombers coming in....... Talk about FUCK ME! Imagine what a blow it would have been to the Japanese fleet if they had taken the radar seriously and not dismissed it and defeated the raid?

There’s a school of thought that Roosevelt knew the attack was coming and allowed it to happen, as he wanted a pretext to get into the war. 

Boru

That is a bit too conspiracy for me. I could see Trump or Cheney being that much of a dick, but FDR, no. This documentary is saying both sides knew it was coming, but not in a conspiracy way, just that in eventually it would happen somehow. 

FDR was expecting a declaration of war first, but the Japanese diplomats, according to the documentary really waffled on the communication form the Emperor and according to the documentary, they simply were confused about what message to send at the time. (According to the documentary I am watching right now).
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#5
RE: Lately stuck on WW2 history.
(December 6, 2018 at 12:46 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(December 6, 2018 at 12:39 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: There’s a school of thought that Roosevelt knew the attack was coming and allowed it to happen, as he wanted a pretext to get into the war. 

Boru

That is a bit too conspiracy for me. I could see Trump or Cheney being that much of a dick, but FDR, no. This documentary is saying both sides knew it was coming, but not in a conspiracy way, just that in eventually it would happen somehow. 

FDR was expecting a declaration of war first, but the Japanese diplomats, according to the documentary really waffled on the communication form the Emperor and according to the documentary, they simply were confused about what message to send at the time. (According to the documentary I am watching right now).

Yeah, I’m not entirely convinced of it myself.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#6
RE: Lately stuck on WW2 history.
What is heartening is that they translated a letter from a Japanese pilot who was involved in the raid, and he basically said what any sane person with empathy would, that war is hell, "On the front lines there are no winners."  And he basically expressed having to live with the guilt of killing other humans.
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#7
RE: Lately stuck on WW2 history.
Well, that’s the risk you take. Reminds me of the Python sketch:

‘I’d like to leave the army, Colonel.’

‘Good lord, Private...why?’

‘It’s dangerous!’

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#8
RE: Lately stuck on WW2 history.
(December 6, 2018 at 12:43 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: I love WWII history.  That's a result of hanging out with a bunch of gaming geeks in college who liked to engage in military simulations and battles for fun, and talk about the tools involved in such battles.  World War 2 history is a rich source of fascination for me.  Sadly, I've gotten rid of any books I had on the subject, and spend little time on the subject any more.

I guess I am getting into it now, considering our current global politics and how WW3 should be avoided. The level of cruelty inflicted by humans on each other. It isn't as much a fascination for me as it is how humans in groups can be both extremely cruel and at the same time extremely compassionate in the face of these horrible conflicts. 

It is important history to understand, especially now in the age of nukes. 50 million humans friend and foe, military and civilians died as a result of the vile ideology of one man. Humanity is more fragile in this respect than we'd like to accept.
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#9
RE: Lately stuck on WW2 history.
The operators did report the blip up the chain of command however the officer on duty had been told of a flight of B-17's coming in that morning ( they arrived in the middle of the attack ) and assumed that was what they had detected.   

None of which excuses the failure of the Navy to have a combat air patrol up over the base or of the Army for parking the planes wing-to-wingtip to guard against saboteurs.

And yes, Roosevelt did expect a Japanese attack.  On the Philippines,  and they were tracking the Japanese invasion force heading south towards Malaya.
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#10
RE: Lately stuck on WW2 history.
(December 6, 2018 at 12:36 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Again, watching a documentary on WW2. I just found out that radar caught the Japanese fighters planes on radar at Pearl Harbor, BUT dismissed it as scheduled American bombers coming in....... Talk about FUCK ME! Imagine what a blow it would have been to the Japanese fleet if they had taken the radar seriously and not dismissed it and defeated the raid?


In dec 1941 the Americans have not worked out the entire process and procedure required to make good use of radar information. Automatic electronic identification of friend and foe was still in the future. On that morning a flight of American aircraft is expected to come to land in Oahu. So it is easy to understand why the radar man would not have been unduly alarmed by aircrafts coming in. Without thoroughly worked out procedures, the options before the American radar man would have been one of the two:

1. Always raise an alert whenever an incoming air craft is detected - consequence: a a lot of false alerts, tired and jaded airmen, and incidents of friendly fire casualties.

2. Wait until confirmation incoming aircraft is hostile - consequence: the confirmation is Japanese bombs and when that is received it is too late.

So given the skill level and degree of organization, it was impractical to expect the American radar to have made a difference.

Also American radar remained far superior to Japanese radar during the entire war, American procedures and processes for using radar information in combat would remain totally inadequate until early 1943. In late 1942, even though American ships had good radar and Japanese ships had none, in night battles the Americans made such poor use of radar, and had so many road blocks to passing radar information to decision makers, that in night naval battles, the Japanese using eye balls usually react first to the presence of Americans ships using radar. The Japanese would shoot first, hit first, set Americans ships on fire, and then American radar stops being an advantage as the American fleet is now brightly illuminated by fires on Americans ships so the Japanese can keep shooting at American ships as if it were day.

Americans lost 3 major night naval battles in the Solomons because Japanese using eyeballs processed what they saw better than Americans were able to process radar information actions.
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