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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 19, 2020 at 8:35 am
This has always been the relationship between the catholic church and science. Any bit which might seem to confer them more validity, in transference.. more power..they accept. Anything which might reduce the same, they reject.
It doesn't take much to understand that this is what people are referring to when they state as a fact that the church has always been in conflict with science.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 19, 2020 at 10:54 am
(February 18, 2020 at 5:32 pm)Belacqua Wrote: (February 18, 2020 at 11:01 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Good point Bel, he was not executed for science, he was executed for thinking and speaking (rather unscientific for the most part) ideas the church disapproved of. He was more a martyr for free speech.
I addressed this already.
He was executed for going to Italy and calling for the overthrow of the church, to replace it with strange superstitious ideas based on fake Egyptian tablets.
Lots of people were writing freely about Hermes Trismegistus and similar ideas who were not burned at the stake.
You mean it was okay to speak freely as long as you didn't say things that worried the Church too much? Who knew?
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 19, 2020 at 4:17 pm
(February 19, 2020 at 10:54 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: You mean it was okay to speak freely as long as you didn't say things that worried the Church too much? Who knew?
Powerful institutions will protect their power, often through violence.
I do not condone this.
Bruno was not killed because of science.
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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 19, 2020 at 8:49 pm
(February 19, 2020 at 4:17 pm)Belacqua Wrote: (February 19, 2020 at 10:54 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: You mean it was okay to speak freely as long as you didn't say things that worried the Church too much? Who knew?
Powerful institutions will protect their power, often through violence.
I do not condone this.
Bruno was not killed because of science.
People in thrall to the RCC killed him. The extent of the brainwashing is evident. I appreciate your bringing this tidbit of truth, btw.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 20, 2020 at 12:52 am
(February 19, 2020 at 8:49 pm)Fireball Wrote: I appreciate your bringing this tidbit of truth, btw.
Yes, truth is good. I'm always surprised by how many atheists prefer falsehood. I thought we were supposed to be the facts-and-evidence guys.
Sometimes it just seems like team sports. The atheist team vs. the believers team. And whatever one team can say to oppose the other one, they'll go with that, even if it's false.
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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 20, 2020 at 1:13 am
Atheists are the "I don't believe in gods" guys, Bel. That's probably a good one to clear up.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 20, 2020 at 7:27 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2020 at 7:27 am by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
(February 20, 2020 at 12:52 am)Belacqua Wrote: (February 19, 2020 at 8:49 pm)Fireball Wrote: I appreciate your bringing this tidbit of truth, btw.
Yes, truth is good. I'm always surprised by how many atheists prefer falsehood. I thought we were supposed to be the facts-and-evidence guys.
Sometimes it just seems like team sports. The atheist team vs. the believers team. And whatever one team can say to oppose the other one, they'll go with that, even if it's false.
What does the reason behind Bruno's execution have to do with atheism? Burning him alive speaks to the cruelty and injustice of the Church, not to the existence of God.
If Bruno was a martyr to science, it's nothing to do with atheism. If he was a martyr to freedom of thought and expression, it's nothing to do with atheism. If he was killed for riding a unicycle through the Sistine Chapel in the nuddy with balloons tied to his willy, it's nothing to do with atheism.
Have atheists repeated the urban myth that he was a martyr to science? Of course. But the statement 'He was killed because of his scientific views' has absolutely no impact on the statement 'I don't believe in God.'
Boru
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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 20, 2020 at 7:39 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2020 at 7:44 am by Deesse23.)
Bruno was burnt because he questioned the authority of the church. He claimed things that would have completely undermined the justification and power of the church.
The fact that he was partly correct and partly incorrect is quite irrelevant to this issue. The relevant part is that some of those things he claimed we do know to be correct, and in hindsight we can see that the church not only burnt him for questioning its authority, but for making claims that were factually true. Its a double whammy against the church.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 20, 2020 at 7:54 am
(February 20, 2020 at 7:27 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If Bruno was a martyr to science, it's nothing to do with atheism.
Yes, I agree.
I wish people would stop using fictional versions of his death as some sort of advertisement for atheism.
Quote: But the statement 'He was killed because of his scientific views' has absolutely no impact on the statement 'I don't believe in God.'
That's true. The reasons for his death, both the true and the popular false versions, tell us nothing at all about the existence of God.
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RE: Giordano Bruno
February 20, 2020 at 8:30 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2020 at 9:01 am by Fake Messiah.)
We could say that Bruno died because of atheist reasons because not only was he a freethinker but Eight propositions of why he was killed was that he accepted the Copernicus model of the solar system (that was against Bible and therefore religion) as well as doubting in the divinity of Jesus.
Quote:1 - The statement of "two real and eternal principles of existence: the soul of the world and the original matter from which beings are derived".
2 - The doctrine of the infinite universe and infinite worlds in conflict with the idea of Creation: "He who denies the infinite effect denies the infinite power".
3 - The idea that every reality resides in the eternal and infinite soul of the world, including the body: "There is no reality that is not accompanied by a spirit and an intelligence".
4 - The argument according to which "there is no transformation in the substance", since the substance is eternal and generates nothing, but transforms.
5 - The idea of terrestrial movement, which according to Bruno, did not oppose the Holy Scriptures, which were popularised for the faithful and did not apply to scientists.
6 - The designation of stars as "messengers and interpreters of the ways of God".
7 - The allocation of a "both sensory and intellectual" soul to earth.
8 - The opposition to the doctrine of St Thomas on the soul, the spiritual reality held captive in the body and not considered as the form of the human body.
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ft...links.html
Indeed, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine who lead a trial against Bruno and judged him to death, also believed in the literal interpretation of the Bible, for he wrote
Quote:modern commentaries on genesis, the Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Joshua, you will find all agreeing in the literal interpretation that the sun is in heaven and turns around the earth with great speed, and that the earth is very far from heaven and sits motionless at the center of the world.
http://www.historyguide.org/earlymod/foscarini.html
And that's why he later on persecuted Galileo. And then that Cardinal Robert Bellarmine was canonized as a saint in 1930. by Catholic Chruch.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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