(March 5, 2020 at 7:06 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 5, 2020 at 6:49 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Yeah, it's gotten worse ever since FDR left office. although I'm pretty sure even Ronald Reagan would raise an eyebrow at how far right the republican party has come.

Reagan got taking down the Soviet Union right, and did it with fanese, not a sledge hammer. He took them down without starting WW3. That was a good thing. But he fucked up most certainly by giving big business everything they wanted by starting union busting and deregulation. That part of his legacy was bad, and America has suffered ever since.

When we talk about the history of that office, regardless of party, there are very few Lincoln's, FDR'S, JFK'S or Reagan's. Now when I say that, I am not talking about party or policy, but the "it factor".   Obama had that "it factor".  "Trump doesn't have that, but he does have a "Jerry Springer" factor. We don't need that in politics. 

My point is, nobody should be pointing at Bernie or Biden to have a repeat of 2016.  The only enemy right now is Trump.

Then we disagree because biden will have a 2016

(March 5, 2020 at 7:12 pm)SUNGULA Wrote:

(March 5, 2020 at 7:06 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Reagan got taking down the Soviet Union right, and did it with fanese, not a sledge hammer. He took them down without starting WW3. That was a good thing. But he fucked up most certainly by giving big business everything they wanted by starting union busting and deregulation. That part of his legacy was bad, and America has suffered ever since.

When we talk about the history of that office, regardless of party, there are very few Lincoln's, FDR'S, JFK'S or Reagan's. Now when I say that, I am not talking about party or policy, but the "it factor".   Obama had that "it factor".  "Trump doesn't have that, but he does have a "Jerry Springer" factor. We don't need that in politics. 

My point is, nobody should be pointing at Bernie or Biden to have a repeat of 2016.  The only enemy right now is Trump.

Then we disagree because biden will have a 2016

Only if you let that happen. 

I had the same bullshit arguments between Hillary and Bernie supporters last time.

Even back then, I said I WILL VOTE FOR WHOMEVER WE NOMINATE.

Can you say the same? If not, you are giving Trump 4 more years.

And it wasn't just Bernie supporters who argued like that, Hillary supporters ALSO had their "all or nothing" purists. Both with just enough it gave us Trump.

TRUMP, NOT BERNIE, NOT BIDEN, TRUMP IS THE BIGGEST THREAT RIGHT NOW.

(March 5, 2020 at 7:22 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(March 5, 2020 at 7:12 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: Then we disagree because biden will have a 2016

Only if you let that happen. 

I had the same bullshit arguments between Hillary and Bernie supporters last time.

Even back then, I said I WILL VOTE FOR WHOMEVER WE NOMINATE.

Can you say the same? If not, you are giving Trump 4 more years.

And it wasn't just Bernie supporters who argued like that, Hillary supporters ALSO had their "all or nothing" purists. Both with just enough it gave us Trump.

TRUMP, NOT BERNIE, NOT BIDEN, TRUMP IS THE BIGGEST THREAT RIGHT NOW.

And pushing a bad candidate WILL get Trump in

Says you?

Calling Biden a bad candidate is an insult to Obama. Are you saying Obama didn't have good decision making skills? Despite that he was a minority, who beat the GOP TWICE and beat corporate pac money TWICE?

Is Biden Obama? No, and yes, I do have my concerns about him. But again, I am not making this an "us vs them" issue between Bernie or Biden, anymore than I did Hillary vs Bernie in 16. Right now, at this moment in time, I am simply thinking pragmatically. NOTHING MORE. But again, I am still voting blue if Bernie gets nominated, or Biden gets nominated. Both of them are going to be 1,000% better than the orange fascist bully. Trying to shame me for having my current favorite is pathetic.

(March 5, 2020 at 7:12 pm)SUNGULA Wrote:

(March 5, 2020 at 7:06 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Reagan got taking down the Soviet Union right, and did it with fanese, not a sledge hammer. He took them down without starting WW3. That was a good thing. But he fucked up most certainly by giving big business everything they wanted by starting union busting and deregulation. That part of his legacy was bad, and America has suffered ever since.

When we talk about the history of that office, regardless of party, there are very few Lincoln's, FDR'S, JFK'S or Reagan's. Now when I say that, I am not talking about party or policy, but the "it factor".   Obama had that "it factor".  "Trump doesn't have that, but he does have a "Jerry Springer" factor. We don't need that in politics. 

My point is, nobody should be pointing at Bernie or Biden to have a repeat of 2016.  The only enemy right now is Trump.

Then we disagree because biden will have a 2016

And you will be partly responsible for said 2016. Just like happened four years ago. There's a Hell of a lot to criticise Biden and the Democratic establishment for, but unless you live in one of those states that no Democrat has taken in several decades, the only possible outcomes are: it fails because there aren't enough Busters to make a difference, or it ends with Donald Trump getting a second fucking term because some Dems were too wrapped up in their principles to actually see who the real enemy was and vote for the one candidate who has ANY chance to beat him.





You can argue that Biden's too stodgy and with too much baggage to beat Trump and that Bernie's the only one with the sort of strident following to actually get people off their asses and vote or that Bernie's too radical to beat Trump and that Biden's the only one who can pull off not alienating Middle America. I'm more convinced by the former camp, and I'm really looking forward to voting for Bernie when the Illinois primary comes. And hopefully, in November, if all goes well, I'll be voting for him for a third time. Regardless of whatever you might predict about the behaviour of crowds, one thing is crystal clear: The ONLY person who can beat Trump is the Democratic candidate. Even if said candidate is as crap as Joe Biden, he still has infinitely more chance to beat him than anyone else simply because he has the Democratic nomination and nobody else does.

The old saying "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" really fucking applies here. The only thing (short of an actual coup) that you can do to take out Trump is by voting for the Democratic candidate. I'd be really fucking disappointed if Biden ended up the nominee, but it would require a stupefying level of delusion to think that Biden can be worse than Trump.

(March 5, 2020 at 7:24 pm)SUNGULA Wrote:

(March 5, 2020 at 7:22 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Only if you let that happen. 

I had the same bullshit arguments between Hillary and Bernie supporters last time.

Even back then, I said I WILL VOTE FOR WHOMEVER WE NOMINATE.

Can you say the same? If not, you are giving Trump 4 more years.

And it wasn't just Bernie supporters who argued like that, Hillary supporters ALSO had their "all or nothing" purists. Both with just enough it gave us Trump.

TRUMP, NOT BERNIE, NOT BIDEN, TRUMP IS THE BIGGEST THREAT RIGHT NOW.

And pushing a bad candidate WILL get Trump in

You  are a perfect example of why for 40 years the GOP has gotten away with gerrymandering, hogging the Governorships and state houses. Trump anally raped his way through the GOP primaries, vilifying and insulting his rivals. But what did they do when he got the nomination, they fell in line. 

If you want him out of office, we have to have the same unity mentality that the GOP has had for 40 years. I love progressives, I really do, but we suck at long term planning. 

The GOP is great at unity. They could nominate Ted Bundy and get a win. Democrats, while we are far better independent thinkers, we still suck at unity.

Quote:Says you?

Says the fact he has about as much going on as hillary 

Quote:Calling Biden a bad candidate is an insult to Obama

Yup i don't worship Obama 

Quote:Are you saying Obama didn't have good decision making skills?

Drone strikes and Guantanamo Bay Barrack made plenty of bad decisions.Joe was on of them 

Quote: Despite that he was a minority, who beat the GOP TWICE and beat corporate pac money TWICE?

No Obama beat the GOP Joe was there for the ride  

Quote:Is Biden Obama? No,

Biden is to Obama what Jimmy Olsen is to Superman 

Quote:But again, I am not making this an "us vs them" issue between Bernie or Biden, anymore than I did Hillary vs Bernie in 16.

Which was valid now and valid hen considering the shit Clinton pulled  

Quote: Right now, at this moment in time, I am simply thinking pragmatically. NOTHING MORE.

You can call it that but...

Quote: But again, I am still voting blue if Bernie gets nominated, or Biden gets nominated.

The later leads to Trump

Quote: Both of them are going to be 1,000% better than the orange fascist bully. 

One will cower to the  people who put the  fascist bully in office 

Quote:Trying to shame me for having my current favorite is pathetic.

Only in your mind am i doing that

---

(March 5, 2020 at 7:41 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(March 5, 2020 at 7:12 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: Then we disagree because biden will have a 2016

And you will be partly responsible for said 2016. Just like happened four years ago. There's a Hell of a lot to criticise Biden and the Democratic establishment for, but unless you live in one of those states that no Democrat has taken in several decades, the only possible outcomes are: it fails because there aren't enough Busters to make a difference, or it ends with Donald Trump getting a second fucking term because some Dems were too wrapped up in their principles to actually see who the real enemy was and vote for the one candidate who has ANY chance to beat him.





You can argue that Biden's too stodgy and with too much baggage to beat Trump and that Bernie's the only one with the sort of strident following to actually get people off their asses and vote or that Bernie's too radical to beat Trump and that Biden's the only one who can pull off not alienating Middle America. I'm more convinced by the former camp, and I'm really looking forward to voting for Bernie when the Illinois primary comes. And hopefully, in November, if all goes well, I'll be voting for him for a third time. Regardless of whatever you might predict about the behaviour of crowds, one thing is crystal clear: The ONLY person who can beat Trump is the Democratic candidate. Even if said candidate is as crap as Joe Biden, he still has infinitely more chance to beat him than anyone else simply because he has the Democratic nomination and nobody else does.

The old saying "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" really fucking applies here. The only thing (short of an actual coup) that you can do to take out Trump is by voting for the Democratic candidate. I'd be really fucking disappointed if Biden ended up the nominee, but it would require a stupefying level of delusion to think that Biden can be worse than Trump.

1. He will lose 

2. Even  if he wins he will be a push over

---

(March 5, 2020 at 7:41 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(March 5, 2020 at 7:12 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: Then we disagree because biden will have a 2016

And you will be partly responsible for said 2016. Just like happened four years ago. There's a Hell of a lot to criticise Biden and the Democratic establishment for, but unless you live in one of those states that no Democrat has taken in several decades, the only possible outcomes are: it fails because there aren't enough Busters to make a difference, or it ends with Donald Trump getting a second fucking term because some Dems were too wrapped up in their principles to actually see who the real enemy was and vote for the one candidate who has ANY chance to beat him.





You can argue that Biden's too stodgy and with too much baggage to beat Trump and that Bernie's the only one with the sort of strident following to actually get people off their asses and vote or that Bernie's too radical to beat Trump and that Biden's the only one who can pull off not alienating Middle America. I'm more convinced by the former camp, and I'm really looking forward to voting for Bernie when the Illinois primary comes. And hopefully, in November, if all goes well, I'll be voting for him for a third time. Regardless of whatever you might predict about the behaviour of crowds, one thing is crystal clear: The ONLY person who can beat Trump is the Democratic candidate. Even if said candidate is as crap as Joe Biden, he still has infinitely more chance to beat him than anyone else simply because he has the Democratic nomination and nobody else does.

The old saying "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" really fucking applies here. The only thing (short of an actual coup) that you can do to take out Trump is by voting for the Democratic candidate. I'd be really fucking disappointed if Biden ended up the nominee, but it would require a stupefying level of delusion to think that Biden can be worse than Trump.

1. He will lose 

2. Even  if he wins he will be a push over

---

Quote:You  are a perfect example of why for 40 years the GOP has gotten away with gerrymandering, hogging the Governorships and state houses. Trump anally raped his way through the GOP primaries, vilifying and insulting his rivals. But what did they do when he got the nomination, they fell in line. 

If you want him out of office, we have to have the same unity mentality that the GOP has had for 40 years. I love progressives, I really do, but we suck at long term planning. 

The GOP is great at unity. They could nominate Ted Bundy and get a win. Democrats, while we are far better independent thinkers, we still suck at unity.

Unity to fail

The difference between your idea of "lets stick together" and mine is simple. Your's is based on BLIND LOYALTY. It does work unfortunately, and the GOP AND TRUMP are perfect examples of what blind loyalty looks like.

STOP stupidly and falsely accusing me of giving that fucktard 4 more years because I do not agree with certain tactics.

BERNIE IS RIGHT on the need to put corporate America in check. HE IS RIGHT in valuing workers wages. HE IS RIGHT in valuing universal health care. HE IS RIGHT in valuing cheap to free college. PLEASE TELL ME YOU CAN READ FUCKING ENGLISH.

Where he lost me, AND AGAIN, I VOTED FOR HIM IN THE 16 primaries, where he lost me this time, WAS NOT BECAUSE HE WAS WRONG, but because of his messaging.

YOU DO NOT PROMOTE THE RIGHT THINGS BY POINTING TO DICTATORS.

TACTICS MATTER......

I have always liked his policies and intent. But it will not sell in the rust belt or middle America or Florida if you are quoting dictators.

I don't give a fuck about intent at this point. If winning is what matters to you, you stil are stuck with the cards that are delt. And right now FOR ME, Biden isn't quoting Castro.

It does not matter to me what Bernie's intent is. You cant simply appeal to a base, and not try to appeal to the rust belt and swing voters.

(March 5, 2020 at 5:17 pm)Aegon Wrote:

(March 5, 2020 at 5:09 pm)Shell B Wrote: It's not retarded or childish. It's just deciding not to cast a vote for someone you don't like. For years, I've only voted if there is a candidate I actually want. I don't do votes for desperate parties. Get better candidates or expect to have to work harder to get your party to vote.

Say a Bernie supporter isn't Democrat. How do you gather you're owed their vote?

It's a fair principle, but the repercussions of allowing Trump and Republicans another 4 years to do things like make the Supreme Court conservative for the rest of our lives, are not worth it. Seriously, what you're saying is extremely silly to me.

Voting is our power. Power is best wielded pragmatically. The primary is the time to be idealistic, that's what it is for. Once things are said and done, and you have a choice in November between people you may not like, don't pretend they're equal because they're not perfect. That doesn't make sense.

People always use that argument when they want me to vote for their party when my candidate isn't in the race anymore. I don't buy it. I'm voting Biden because I like him. If I didn't, I'd vote 3rd party or not vote. I don't owe my vote to anyone.

(March 5, 2020 at 5:28 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(March 5, 2020 at 5:14 pm)Shell B Wrote: That's all well and good, but you can't tell other people to do that just because it's what you would do. I'll vote for Biden because I actually don't mind him that much, but if it was someone I didn't like, I wouldn't vote. It's on the Dems to sort their shit out, not me.

People are free to do whatever they want, including not vote. I just don’t want to hear their bitching after the fact, when Trump wins again.

We still have a right to bitch if we don't vote. I really dislike it when people say that, as if I have to eat a shit sandwich without complaint because I didn't vote the way they wanted me to. Fuck that. I'm a citizen no matter which clown is in the White House, and I'll bitch or praise all I want. You do you. How everyone else votes isn't really anyone else's business.