(April 17, 2020 at 9:33 pm)SUNGULA Wrote:

Quote:A child is born secular - not atheist.

Unless you came out of your mom with a belief in god your an atheist

Is it possible that you have a grammatical error, here, or are you posing a pun?

it is impossible to be an atheist, if the person is unaware of the description of a god. It appears that the person is an atheist, but that cannot be if they have no reference to distinguish the binary that you are trying to describe.

(April 18, 2020 at 12:44 am)Prof.Lunaphiles Wrote:

(April 17, 2020 at 9:33 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: Unless you came out of your mom with a belief in god your an atheist

Is it possible that you have a grammatical error, here, or are you posing a pun?

No

(April 18, 2020 at 12:43 am)SUNGULA Wrote:

Quote:How can that be if atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods - what is the doctrine that a person is "religious" about???

Simple it's a spiritual belief that doesn't include gods

What pray tell is a "spiritual" belief (that does not include gods)??? 


Is this organized trolling, that SodHead was warning me about?

(April 18, 2020 at 12:51 am)Prof.Lunaphiles Wrote:

(April 18, 2020 at 12:43 am)SUNGULA Wrote: Simple it's a spiritual belief that doesn't include gods

What pray tell is a "spiritual" belief (that does not include gods)??? 


Is this organized trolling, that SodHead was warning me about?

Are you serious ? Do you think all spirituality requires a god ? 

If you are unaware of the mere description of a god...you cannot possibly believe in one. People who don't believe in gods, for any reason or no reason, are atheists by fiat and definition.

Problem?

Gods and spirits are not interchangeable. People can and do believe in one but not the other. Again - theism; the belief in a personal and intervening god. Theism is not the belief in spirits - it is the belief in a personal and intervening god. Plenty of atheists believe in spirits but no atheist believes in any god of any kind.

(April 18, 2020 at 12:44 am)Prof.Lunaphiles Wrote:

(April 17, 2020 at 9:33 pm)SUNGULA Wrote: Unless you came out of your mom with a belief in god your an atheist

Is it possible that you have a grammatical error, here, or are you posing a pun?

it is impossible to be an atheist, if the person is unaware of the description of a god. It appears that the person is an atheist, but that cannot be if they have no reference to distinguish the binary that you are trying to describe.

This forum has a kind of credo concerning the word "atheist." Some people here tend to be very strict about it.

They are adamant that anyone lacking a belief in God is an atheist. Some people are willing to apply the word to newborn babies, since they also lack a belief. In such a case, we would have to say that rocks and lizards are also atheists, but I have seen people argue this.

You are using the word in a better way, as far as I'm concerned. It is more meaningful to apply the word "atheist" to someone who has heard, and for whatever reason failed to accept, the assertion that God exists. Rocks, lizards, and newborns are atheist in only the most trivial sense.

But you're up against strong ideological belief, and experience indicates no one will bend.

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(April 18, 2020 at 12:33 am)Prof.Lunaphiles Wrote: An individual person cannot be a secularist - the term "secularist" is a misnomer, only organizations, such as republic governing systems can be secular, at best, the only waay a person can be a secularist is by guarding the principle of of unbiased particpation in deliberating civil law - is that now the ultimate conclusion of separating faith from governance? Certainly you would agree that a government that forbids the representation for Christians is not secular - right???

I would say that I am an individual and a secularist because I think that government should be neutral concerning religion. And education unaffiliated with religion should be available. 

I agree with you that the word "secular" doesn't mean merely "non-religious." 

Quote:What is the definition of "faith," and what distinguishes it from "belief." and distiguishes  from "knoledge," and so forth???

I agree that it would be helpful for people to be more careful about using these words. 

Unfortunately the word "belief" has negative connotations for a lot of people. They think it means something like "to hold something to be true according to reasons of which I do not approve." So recently someone here was saying that she doesn't "believe in" evolution, she "accepts" evolution. That looks to me as if she's avoiding the connotations of what "belief" is. 

Do you prefer the old-fashioned view, that knowledge is justified true belief? I've found that to be the least problematical version.

In his book Seven Types of Atheism, John Gray points out that the history of science is full of ideas which were once believed and are now discarded. People held things to be true, for various reasons, and then stopped holding them to be true. This was belief. But people want to segregate what belief is, based on whether they find the reasons for it to be good or not.

The word atheist has the same meaning for someone who has heard of the concept of god and for someone who hasnt heard of the concept god, that is the point. Its a label used to describe the concept of not believing in a god, it is that simple no deeper meaning required. Who cares if thats inconvenient for theists and their bad arguments or for atheists who dont want to use the the label atheist.

(April 18, 2020 at 4:21 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: The word atheist has the same meaning for someone who has heard of the concept of god and for someone who hasnt heard of the concept god, that is the point. Its a label used to describe the concept of not believing in a god, it is that simple no deeper meaning required. Who cares if thats inconvenient for theists and their bad arguments or for atheists who dont want to use the the label atheist.

Are lizards atheists?

(April 18, 2020 at 4:34 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(April 18, 2020 at 4:21 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: The word atheist has the same meaning for someone who has heard of the concept of god and for someone who hasnt heard of the concept god, that is the point. Its a label used to describe the concept of not believing in a god, it is that simple no deeper meaning required. Who cares if thats inconvenient for theists and their bad arguments or for atheists who dont want to use the the label atheist.

Are lizards atheists?

The definitions of atheist and theist address the beliefs of people. Why does it matter if a lizard is an atheist? Is the lizard a theist?

(April 18, 2020 at 5:00 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(April 18, 2020 at 4:34 am)Belacqua Wrote: Are lizards atheists?

The definitions of atheist and theist address the beliefs of people. Why does it matter if a lizard is an atheist? Is the lizard a theist?

The lizard lacks a belief in God. 

I maintain that the lack of belief in God that lizards, stones, and newborns have is trivial. If we really want to say that atheism is lack and nothing but lack, that's OK with me, but it says nothing about adult thinking people.

People who have heard religious claims and failed to accept them are not atheists in the same way that lizards and newborns are atheists. Atheist grownups reject religious claims according to standards of judgment. Examples of these standards include "revelation is not reliable" or "the Bible is not a good source of truth." 

These standards of judgment are things we hold to be true -- they are beliefs. Thus our atheism is the result of what we hold to be true. My atheism is not trivial in the way that newborns' atheism is.