(May 11, 2020 at 3:00 pm)Agnostico Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:Sigh. New flash: Atheists (and materialists) are aware that consciousness, mathematics, electricity, wind, etc. exist. Do you think it's possible that you misunderstand the materialist position?

The definition of something immaterial is without physical form. That's what I learnt anyway. 
Air, space, time, neither of these even come from something with a physical form

Um, no. Air is definitely material and physical. We can, and do, weigh it. We can liquefy it.
I think you are confusing 'material' with 'solid'.
Space and time are studied in physics. So they *are* considered to be 'physical'. They are even dynamical: changing because of the physics that is going on.
So, anyway, if that is what you learned, then you were taught wrong. it really is that simple. NOBODY identifies materialism as the position you describe.

(May 11, 2020 at 4:13 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 11, 2020 at 3:00 pm)Agnostico Wrote: The definition of something immaterial is without physical form. That's what I learnt anyway. 
Air, space, time, neither of these even come from something with a physical form


Fair enough but many people say "that's not true" or "that's wrong" which is the logical fallacy of ignorance

Theists can't prove to me that God exists
Atheists can't prove to me that God doesn't exist

An invisible pink unicorn farted the universe into existence, now prove to me that didn't happen.

What you say? Absurd!

Ok, I then, I exist, and Angelina Jolie exists, now prove to me she has never given me a blowjob.

THAT is the problem with all claims on any subject. Naked assertions don't fucking mean shit. They certainly stroke the ego of the person or people that make the claim, but that does not constitute evidence. Otherwise blindly believing anything would mean I really did get a blowjob from Angelina Jolie.

Your logic works backwards. It stupidly assumes all things are true until disproved. 

If I claimed I had an invisible pink Lamborghini that you could not see with the naked eye, and offered to sell it to you for $100 bucks, please don't tell me you'd be that stupid to buy it.

That is how religion works.

What? Angelina Jolie gave you one as well, I thought it was just because I'm special!

(May 11, 2020 at 3:00 pm)Agnostico Wrote:

Mister Agenda Wrote:Sigh. New flash: Atheists (and materialists) are aware that consciousness, mathematics, electricity, wind, etc. exist. Do you think it's possible that you misunderstand the materialist position?

The definition of something immaterial is without physical form. That's what I learnt anyway. 
Air, space, time, neither of these even come from something with a physical form

So you do misunderstand the materialist/physicalist position. Roughly, all that exists is matter, energy, space, and time. Concepts only exist in physical mediums, like brains. All the things you describe fall within those boundaries. Air might be immaterial for purposes of walking through it; but it's not immaterial in the sense that it is not matter, energy, space, or time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

Air is comprised mostly of nitrogen then oxygen, then other trace gases and pollutants depending on where you live. If you want to talk about wind, well that is just movement within the medium of nitrogen, oxygen, and other traces gases and pollutants depending on where you live. Oh, yeah, there is some carbon dioxide in there too.

Near me, after a chili cheese dog, there might be trace amounts of methane and hydrogen sulfide. Do you smell popcorn?

(May 1, 2020 at 4:50 pm)theMadJW Wrote: I don't mean that as insult or as condescension.
It's simply the overwhelming FACTS!

All the different types of cells,constructed by so many molecules, constructed by near endless atoms,carrying out SPECIFIC FUNCTIONS, and linked together by a complex COMPUTER, which enables them all to to WORK TOGETHER- produced by Sheer Accidents is Beyupid (Beyond Stupid).

And that is only referring to living men and animals- not even including all the ecosystems that just 'happen' to provided the elements they need to survive- at JUST the right time!

Holy shit. Youre... you're right! I cant believe I never thought of it this way. Okay, you got me, I'll convert.

(May 11, 2020 at 6:20 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(May 11, 2020 at 3:00 pm)Agnostico Wrote: The definition of something immaterial is without physical form. That's what I learnt anyway. 
Air, space, time, neither of these even come from something with a physical form

So you do misunderstand the materialist/physicalist position. Roughly, all that exists is matter, energy, space, and time. Concepts only exist in physical mediums, like brains. All the things you describe fall within those boundaries. Air might be immaterial for purposes of walking through it; but it's not immaterial in the sense that it is not matter, energy, space, or time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

Fair enough

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Brian37 Wrote:Your logic works backwards. It stupidly assumes all things are true until disproved.

No no no. Im agnostic, im not claiming to know the truth. I don't accept a claim unless it is proven
Does God exist, yes or no... I can't find conclusive evidence, either one is possible

For some people it's not about knowing if a god exists or not.
People have beliefs. Some people believe that a god exists.
Some people believe the Earth is flat and some children believe that Santa Claus exists.

From my perspective, I would call something that we believe with such a high degree of certainty, that is backed by evidence, would be called knowledge.

We can also have casual beliefs that may or may not be true.
"I believe it's going to rain today."
"I believe I'm going to win the lottery."

I don't know if either of these are true, but I can still hold the belief that they are.

On the question, "Do you believe a god exists ?"
This is a yes or no question.
It is a question about belief, not about knowledge.

If you answer "Yes" you are a theist.
Answer "No", you are an atheist.

As a person who knows what beliefs you have and don't have. You know if you have this belief or not.
There is no uncertainty.

(May 11, 2020 at 11:32 pm)Rahn127 Wrote: For some people it's not about knowing if a god exists or not.
People have beliefs. Some people believe that a god exists.
Some people believe the Earth is flat and some children believe that Santa Claus exists.

From my perspective, I would call something that we believe with such a high degree of certainty, that is backed by evidence, would be called knowledge.

We can also have casual beliefs that may or may not be true.
"I believe it's going to rain today."
"I believe I'm going to win the lottery."

I don't know if either of these are true, but I can still hold the belief that they are.

On the question, "Do you believe a god exists ?"
This is a yes or no question.
It is a question about belief, not about knowledge.

If you answer "Yes" you are a theist.
Answer "No", you are an atheist.

As a person who knows what beliefs you have and don't have. You know if you have this belief or not.
There is no uncertainty.

If I ask myself do i believe God exists I would have to say no. This is where atheists stop the inquiry. But why stop there. I keep going
Do I believe God doesn't exist... No... I believe in truth and i haven't got enough evidence to discern the truth

So if i ask if i believe God exists im an atheist but if i ask if i believe God doesn't exist im a theist
Im not being honest with myself if i look at it from one side and not the other

That's not how that works. You're describing bog standard agnostic atheism. Gather up a hundred atheists, there's a strong chance that every single one of them will be agnostic atheists.

How did you end up with the dumbest of the dumb, anyway?

No more than 99 of them if I'm there.