Cherub19 is a Sock a of Cherub786 who was already banned

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(July 27, 2020 at 1:44 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.

No, dear Tosser, I am understanding your semantics thoroughly.

That your argument currently seems to rely upon 'The words' not existing is, to me, very lacking.

Do you have anything else?

Cheers.

Here here

Didn't exist as a community before the 20th century?

Is it because they were persecuted and hounded before that time and throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, or perhaps they just kept their existence quiet?

There was no feminist community/movement before the mid to late 19th century. Or was there.

Even if these two groups didn't have communities before this time, does that make their existence now any less relevant?

To put it another way, there was no Islam before the 3rd/4th century. So by this logic, Islam has no relevance.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline...BT_history

At work.

(July 27, 2020 at 1:55 am)Cherub19 Wrote:

(July 27, 2020 at 1:44 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: No, dear Tosser, I am understanding your semantics thoroughly.

That your argument currently seems to rely upon 'The words' not existing is, to me, very lacking.

Do you have anything else?

Cheers.

The point is you have thus far failed to prove the existence of the LGBTQ as a community prior to the 20th century. The moment you prove the existence of such a community, my argument is invalidated, and the discussion over a word or name to describe that community becomes moot. Until then, my assertion that the LGBTQ community that exists today is a 20th century development stands. When I say we find no name or word to describe this community that allegedly existed before the 20th century (which is your position) is an auxiliary point, which incidentally hasn’t been disproved either. But the substance of my argument can only be refuted if you present evidence that this LGBTQ community did exist in history. Moreover, you should also prove that this community existed continuously. Hypothetically, if you present evidence that what we call the LGBTQ today existed as a community from isolated instances in ancient history but that its existence is not unbroken and not continuous, the question will arise how is it possible that a community has gaps in its history where it altogether ceased to exist. But we will cross that bridge when we come to it, that is, if we ever come to it, which I am confident we won’t.

No you knobb polisher.

I've shown that the prolicavity about which you are making assertions did, in deed, exist and was acknowledged within cultures prior to the 20Th century (To which you've agreed) makes a mockery of your semantic twaddle.

Cheers.

(July 27, 2020 at 1:57 am)The Valkyrie Wrote: Didn't exist as a community before the 20th century?

Is it because they were persecuted and hounded before that time and throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, or perhaps they just kept their existence quiet?

There was no feminist community/movement before the mid to late 19th century.  Or was there.

Even if these two groups didn't have communities before this time, does that make their existence now any less relevant?

To put it another way, there was no Islam before the 3rd/4th century.  So by this logic, Islam has no relevance.

Considering this guys a sock (one who's already been banned ) and a troll are we really surprised .

(July 27, 2020 at 1:57 am)The Valkyrie Wrote: Didn't exist as a community before the 20th century?

Is it because they were persecuted and hounded before that time and throughout the 20th and 21st centuries, or perhaps they just kept their existence quiet?

There was no feminist community/movement before the mid to late 19th century.  Or was there.

Even if these two groups didn't have communities before this time, does that make their existence now any less relevant?

To put it another way, there was no Islam before the 3rd/4th century.  So by this logic, Islam has no relevance.

At work.

So Cherub is happy enough to run their ignorance up a flag pole and wave it around.

All the while sitting on their pitard of semantics as the fuse burns down?

Fair cop.

(July 27, 2020 at 2:16 am)Cherub19 Wrote:

I don’t agree that homosexuals were ever persecuted or “hounded”. Hounded means the authorities or mobs went out of their way to find homosexuals and then inflict punitive measures on them.

This all depends on the time and place. 

First, the word and the concept of homosexuality didn't exist until the 19th century. People thought about and categorized same-sex attraction differently.

So in ancient Rome, for example, they didn't distinguish between gay and straight, they distinguished between penetrating and penetrated. It was considered normal for a Roman to enjoy penetrating someone else, male or female. The penetrated person, however, was considered weaker and not masculine. If you accused a Roman man of fucking other men, that would be considered normal, but if you accused him of enjoying getting fucked, that would be an insult. 

Later Christian Europe didn't think about orientation but about acts. They objected to sodomy. 

That said, men who were known to go in for sodomy, and especially men who encouraged young people to do it, could be hunted down and persecuted. This went on very late. Oscar Wilde, for example, had his life ruined because he was said to have corrupted (seduced to sodomy) the son of a rich man. This rich man, by the way, the Marquess of Queensbury, was an outspoken atheist. 

But if you read about Wilde's life, or about Andre Gide or Proust, it is clear that there is a kind of "community" of men in the know. They know who is welcoming and who isn't, where they can rent summer houses and where they can't, etc. 

It may be that this isn't a "community" in the sense we're using it now. They seldom advocated for their rights or tried to influence public opinion. The world wasn't ready for that. But they supported each other and knew each other. Think of the play-house that the Baron de Charlus has put together for himself and his male friends near the end of Proust's novel. That was a kind of community, though not a political one. 

I was surprised to discover that Tokyo had a thriving gay scene for years, even when America and Europe were behind. Several of the important translators and cultural critics in Japan in the 20th century were gay American servicemen in the post-war occupation who discovered that Japan was safer and more fun for them than back home. Seidensticker and Donald Keene and other names that expats all know. There is a funny story about the guy who translated the Nobel Prize winning Japanese novel into English who got bored at the Nobel banquet in Tokyo and ducked around the corner to a little gay SM club.

(July 27, 2020 at 3:02 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(July 27, 2020 at 2:16 am)Cherub19 Wrote:

I don’t agree that homosexuals were ever persecuted or “hounded”. Hounded means the authorities or mobs went out of their way to find homosexuals and then inflict punitive measures on them.

This all depends on the time and place. 

First, the word and the concept of homosexuality didn't exist until the 19th century. People thought about and categorized same-sex attraction differently.

So in ancient Rome, for example, they didn't distinguish between gay and straight, they distinguished between penetrating and penetrated. It was considered normal for a Roman to enjoy penetrating someone else, male or female. The penetrated person, however, was considered weaker and not masculine. If you accused a Roman man of fucking other men, that would be considered normal, but if you accused him of enjoying getting fucked, that would be an insult. 

Later Christian Europe didn't think about orientation but about acts. They objected to sodomy. 

That said, men who were known to go in for sodomy, and especially men who encouraged young people to do it, could be hunted down and persecuted. This went on very late. Oscar Wilde, for example, had his life ruined because he was said to have corrupted (seduced to sodomy) the son of a rich man. This rich man, by the way, the Marquess of Queensbury, was an outspoken atheist. 

But if you read about Wilde's life, or about Andre Gide or Proust, it is clear that there is a kind of "community" of men in the know. They know who is welcoming and who isn't, where they can rent summer houses and where they can't, etc. 

It may be that this isn't a "community" in the sense we're using it now. They seldom advocated for their rights or tried to influence public opinion. The world wasn't ready for that. But they supported each other and knew each other. Think of the play-house that the Baron de Charlus has put together for himself and his male friends near the end of Proust's novel. That was a kind of community, though not a political one. 

I was surprised to discover that Tokyo had a thriving gay scene for years, even when America and Europe were behind. Several of the important translators and cultural critics in Japan in the 20th century were gay American servicemen in the post-war occupation who discovered that Japan was safer and more fun for them than back home. Seidensticker and Donald Keene and other names that expats all know. There is a funny story about the guy who translated the Nobel Prize winning Japanese novel into English who got bored at the Nobel banquet in Tokyo and ducked around the corner to a little gay SM club.

Bel Cherub19 is Sock of a already banned person

(July 27, 2020 at 3:02 am)Belacqua Wrote: That said, men who were known to go in for sodomy, and especially men who encouraged young people to do it, could be hunted down and persecuted. This went on very late. Oscar Wilde, for example, had his life ruined because he was said to have corrupted (seduced to sodomy) the son of a rich man. This rich man, by the way, the Marquess of Queensbury, was an outspoken atheist. 

But if you read about Wilde's life, or about Andre Gide or Proust, it is clear that there is a kind of "community" of men in the know. They know who is welcoming and who isn't, where they can rent summer houses and where they can't, etc. 

It may be that this isn't a "community" in the sense we're using it now. They seldom advocated for their rights or tried to influence public opinion. The world wasn't ready for that. But they supported each other and knew each other. Think of the play-house that the Baron de Charlus has put together for himself and his male friends near the end of Proust's novel. That was a kind of community, though not a political one. 

I was surprised to discover that Tokyo had a thriving gay scene for years, even when America and Europe were behind. Several of the important translators and cultural critics in Japan in the 20th century were gay American servicemen in the post-war occupation who discovered that Japan was safer and more fun for them than back home. Seidensticker and Donald Keene and other names that expats all know. There is a funny story about the guy who translated the Nobel Prize winning Japanese novel into English who got bored at the Nobel banquet in Tokyo and ducked around the corner to a little gay SM club.