"How can we have faith"

I have to wonder why on earth this question is even asked considering that the answer is hard wired into the question. If one is asking one does not.

Bring on the action!

Hope you'll do more than this thing... maybe I'm weird (I don't think so), but I'm just not interested in the subject of religion (at all).

Stone her!!!

Already done, dear.



The sad thing is that could 'almost' be me.

Alpha Course Week 4 31/10/2011

Meal was sausages with mashed potato and peas. The sausages were obviously from a “catering” pack and so were mushy and without texture. The mashed potato was a bit runny and possibly (although I couldn't swear to this) instant mash. The peas were tinned processed peas. It was OK but not the best – and I don't want to seem ungrateful. During the meal I spoke to a lady on my left for quite a long time, and then I spoke to the chap on my right who happened to be the “senior lay-person” I described in my previous submissions. We had quite a long and in depth discussion about the topic of the day which was “Why and How do I Pray”. I introduced my main point about prayer – which is that if intersessionary prayer works, is god changing the future in your favour ? If so how can he know the future ? The “senior” broadened the discussion by talking about the battle between good and evil but I kept dragging the chat back to the specific question I had asked. It was like herding cats, each time I brought things back to it he started to talk about the broader context, and somehow implied that I was being trivial when there were deeper issues to consider (like his favoured battle of good and evil) . Nevertheless we remained on good terms and not confrontational which I was quite pleased about.

Numbers :- 19 people, only 5 men. Can't understand why I didn't notice this imbalance before last week. What does it mean ??

The Talk. - Why and How do I Pray

This was conducted by the Portuguese student I have mentioned in week 1. He is about 21 and a very popular member of the church. He sprinkled his talk with jokes and anecdotes which were generally quite amusing, and his English is very good. His theme was how and why we pray, about the ways god has intervened to help him but cynics would say were a coincident (his words) . Then talked about praying to god as helping to form a relationship, and how god answers prayers in three ways – yes, no, or wait (no clue as to how to distinguish between no and wait). Also that god will not answer prayers if it is not good for you – god's really on to a winner here, he gets the credit whatever he does. In truth, this chap is so pleasant and good natured it was hard to be negative, but his talked was specifically directed at Christians, it did not cover any theological issues about prayer and meant nothing to me as an atheist.

The Group Session.

Numbers :- 12 in my group, 7 in the other, does this mean anything ???

At the start of the session, “father”- who was leading the discussion – announced he would be using the “talking book” scheme from last week. I asked if we had to wait till the book came round, or could anyone ask for the book when they had something to say. Agreed to the latter, and for the rest of the session stuck to this but ignored it on occasion. Generally it was successful, I said plenty and seemed to follow the spirit of the scheme and no-one appeared unhappy so I'll say no more about it.

As usual the book went round the group and no-one wanted to say anything so as soon as it got to me I launched into one of my arguments. I asked the Portuguese chap whether he is able to tell when a good thing happens to him, (like winning a raffle or getting a job etc.) , whether it is a lucky coincidence or whether god intervened to make it happen. I tried to make it as simple and direct as possible because Christians are masters at evading a question. “Lots of happy and unlikely events happen to you – you find your lost keys, your lost ID is found on a bus by a friend even though you live in a big city (his example) , you are worried about having enough money to go out but then find £20 in the pocket of some trousers you haven,t worn for a while (this happened to me once !) etc. Are these ALL the work of god, or are some happy coincidences. If so can you tell which ones are which” The answers I got were mostly “if you prayed for it it was god”. The session then descended into a succession of people giving an example of how prayer helped them of the “we were broke/within an inch of death then we offered 3 jobs/miraculously recovered type. It got quite tedious like last week, it wasn't testimonies but it wasn't much different.

My original question got lost in all this, so at the next opportunity I said “I have a problem with prayer, the ones that offer praise or thanks are understandable – they're like a hymn, but if intersessionary prayer works, aren't you asking god to change the future in your favour or that of a third person, if so how can god know the future and how can he be omniscient - I just wondered what people thought about it” (I often end my statements like this now – it seems to make things less adversarial) As I am beginning to get used to now, there was no addressing of this question. There followed another round of anecdotes about “how prayer has helped me”. The book got to a Portuguese woman of about 30 who has quite a thick accent, she spoke for a long time but it was almost impossible to understand what she was saying. At one point she got upset because she was talking about her mother, had to be led off for some tea and sympathy. To this moment I do not know whether her mother died or had recovered, but I now had to make sure I did not use medical analogies, or make them very very general. Book got to “daughter” who briefly alluded to her fathers recovery from illness. “Oh good “ I thought, at least that is out of the way now. How wrong I was because the book immediately passed to “father” who treated us to another exposition of his testimony – special extended version with extra medical detail this time !! That's 4 times now, every week he does this. I looked at the others and they were gazing at him with rapt attention !! Are they mad !!

I was determined to stick to my question and make it even simpler and more unavoidable. When I next had the book - “Does God change the future in your favour if you pray to him ? If not what is the point of intercessionary prayer ?” One of the young women said “If it is Gods will then that favourable outcome will happen”. I said “ If “what will be will be”, then what is the point of intercessionary prayer which every Christian in this room has claimed is effective and actually works ?” . I was beginning to get tired of saying “intercessionary” and it felt like wading through treacle. The “father” used the “god moves in mysterious ways” cop-out “we haven't got the answer to all your questions”. The “mother” said it was an obscure theological matter. The “father” immediately ended the session, but I was able to have a final say - “This is not an obscure theological matter, it goes to the heart of what Christians believe about prayer – does it work or not. I am surprised that nobody is interested in tackling the issue. If I were a Christian, I know that I would want these questions nailed to the floor for fear that the things I believed were false.” Quite glad to get that in as a closing statement !!

There was a brief further exchange,

“father” - Don't you think you would pray for your children if they were gravely ill”
me - Couldn't answer that, it's possible if I was desperate. The Hindus pray to their gods in those circumstances, so what does that prove – is their god true”
female church elder - “There is only one true God”
me - That's what they say.
Female church elder – They are wrong
me - That's what they say

Pretty good knockabout stuff ehh !!!!

That's it. Feeling much better this week , no tempers lost, helped to put chairs away – even said goodbye to people. This is much nicer. Feeling more like their tame atheist who they regard with fond indulgence .
Regards

pgrimes15

Glad it went better this week!

(October 31, 2011 at 8:12 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: if intersessionary prayer works, is god changing the future in your favour ? If so how can he know the future ?

God changing your future is not changing how events play out as he knows they do. Your choices are your choices independent of predestination.

(October 31, 2011 at 8:12 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: Numbers :- 19 people, only 5 men. Can't understand why I didn't notice this imbalance before last week. What does it mean ??

You scored!!

(October 31, 2011 at 8:12 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: Christians are masters at evading a question.

They're not the only ones!

(October 31, 2011 at 8:12 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: Numbers :- 12 in my group, 7 in the other, does this mean anything ???

What was the distribution of males?

(October 31, 2011 at 8:12 pm)pgrimes15 Wrote: prayer – does it work or not.

Depends on your interpretation. Same with interpreting from all events you experience: How do you discern what God is saying to you? Answer: by learning how God has communicated in the past, and applying discernment to live data against your model of God.

As a non theist, you will interpret those same things differently, or perhaps not at all.

'prayer – does it work or not.'

Ask Rick Perry

I think my strategy will be a "sound bite" sized idea. There is no chance that I will be able to persuade any Christian in that setting to break ranks, but there are few younger people that may go away thinking about what I have said.
Notice that my motivation has changed since the first week, where I was just interested in talking about religion and faith. The entrenched position of all the other participants has made me change my stance. Not once has anyone said "That's a good point - I'll give that some thought".
From now on I will try to leave everyone with an easily memerable thought, i.e. "Why does the bible support slavery?" or "Why doesn't God kill Satan?" or "How could you live in paradise when your loved ones are being tortured in hell for a thought crime?"
Perhaps if people ponder these things in private they will begin the journey towards shaking off their indoctrination.

Regards

pgrimes15

Alpha Course Week 5 7th November 2011

Meal.

This week it was chicken and mushroom pie with boiled potatoes, carrots and broccoli.. The pie was one where the pastry was done separately and put on top of a stew at serving up time, but it was very tasty nonetheless. The broccoli was frozen so a bit mushy, but all in all not too bad. Sat with my usual group of ladies, and getting to know them quite well, they seem please to see me. (none of them are on my discussion group).

Numbers – again there were 21 people in total but only 5 men including me. I'm sure this means something – are women more naturally susceptible to religion ? In the discussion groups, mine had 12 the other 9.

Talk

The topic this week was “Why and how should I read the bible?” - talk given by the vicar. He mentioned that there were a lot of bibles printed and sold every year, and it is translated into a lot of languages. The bible is Gods' communication to us and is his “manual” for life – to illustrate this he produced his car manual and flicked through the pages showing how it could help him inflate his tyres etc. This seemed a bit of unnecessary theatre to me. The bible is there so that we can find out what is right and wrong. He quoted “All scripture is God breathed” - that is, God was the inspiration for the scriptures, and used the analogy of Christopher Wren designing St. Pauls although he himself never laid a single brick.. Quite a bit more about how brilliant the bible is but it got a bit boring and my mind drifted.

Group Session

As last week the session was led by “father” even though the vicar was back. He announced that we would continue with the talking book scheme from the last 2 weeks. The first question was “Any comments on the talk”. Book went round the group and back to “father” in double quick time. Maybe others had found it as boring as me. Next question was “Is the bible a manual for life?”. The book went round with about 3 or 4 people stating how they found it inspired them or was a great help etc. When it got to me I brought up the subject of slavery “If the bible is a manual for life and lets us tell right from wrong, what do people think about why it supports and condones slavery?” That put the cat amongst the pigeons. The “father” who is to my immediate left immediately said that he didn't think the bible does that, but I had come prepared with quotes – Leviticus 25:44-46 – where the bible explicitly states the conditions under which you can own slaves. Much rustling of pages ensued, whilst “father” rather stammered out that slavery was what humans did . By then the book had passed on so there was no more mention of slavery, and I was trying to stick to the rules, it actually curbs my instinct to interrupt and makes it better when I do speak. The vicar said “we don't have all the answers – part of Faith is not having the answers” - I'm getting quite used to this cop-out . When I got the book again I said “To round up my point, there is a lot of horrible stuff in the bible, particularly the OT, for example the part where the holy spirit goes from house to house in Egypt killing children except where there is a fish on the door. And then the Jews and Christians have a feast about it ! What a horrible thing to have a celebration about !” Just glum silence followed that.
Next question “Is the Bible the word of God?”. Usual testimonies of how great the bible is from some before I get the book (I'm always the last to get it this week). I say “If the Bible is the word of God, judging by the nasty stuff that happens in the OT I'm very glad he does not exist !”
At this the “father” asks me why I am here. I start to give my reasons but he interrupts and says “If this course went on for a year would you still hold the views you have now”. I say I couldn't possibly answer that, and if the course did go on for a year would he still hold his views. As he started to reply I stated that the course claimed to welcome agnostics and he seemed to be questioning my right to be there. He very quickly backed down. This is just too easy. Next the vicar asked me what would change my mind so I gave a list of about 5 or 6 things that would make me convert on the spot – stuff like an appearance by Jesus, a proper prophecy, etc. - I'm well into my stride now. The vicar says that he cannot provide any proof except the personal testimony and experience. I say “How convincing would you find it if a Hindu gave his personal testimony and assured you that if you just took that leap of faith they guarantee that Lord Vishnu would come into your heart ?” The “mother” gave the chair analogy – you have faith that a chair will support you if you sit on it. I replied the analogy does not work because I do not need to have faith in the existence of the chair. You never see someone poised to sit over thin air saying I have faith in this chair !!
This is really too easy, and I get the feeling that I have begun to grind them down. Got some more of “I just know it's true” from various people. Got the “you can't see air but you know it's there “ analogy. This is surely stuff for toddlers. My reply, “Air is made of colourless gasses, but if you go into orbit …. etc”
It was me against the rest by now. I was asked would I want it to be true and I replied by paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens (I did say they were his words so I wasn't plagiarising !) “No I think it would be horrible. It would be like a spiritual North Korea with 24 hour surveillance in your every waking moment and also when you were asleep !!”
Getting to the end now, but as last week I was able to have the closing statement. “Obviously all religions are not true, but they could all be false “

Brilliant !! Thoroughly enjoyed that !! It was like stealing sweets from a child !! And all done without any acrimony or bad feeling. Even “father” and I are getting along OK. In truth I feel a bit sorry for him, because he is a recently promoted church “elder” and obviously feels he should be doing more than the others to provide answers. (at least better than “we haven't got all the answers”).

That's all for now. Next week “How does God guide us?”.

Regards

pgrimes15