(December 11, 2020 at 12:52 pm)WinterHold Wrote: Bellydancers are trolls with no morals; they bellydance around morals because they have none.

Lemme guess - you made a pass at a belly dancer and she shot you down?

Boru

(December 11, 2020 at 12:28 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

Quote:Sunni and Shia scholars generally believe that the Quran was written down in its entirety at the time of Muhammad's death.[citation needed] Muhammad's cousin Ibn Abbas describes the way in which the final version of the Quran was fixed: "the prophet recited the book before Gabriel every year in the month of Ramadan, and in the month in which he died he recited it before him twice."[18] It is believed that the term "reciting the Quran twice" means compiling all the Quranic revelations into a complete and final version. It is understood[citation needed] that toward the end of Muhammad's life a special act of revelation occurred in which a final and complete version of the Quran was created. The term 'recite', which is used here, is referring to the custom where a Quranic scholar recites the entire Quran from beginning to end a number of times before a senior scholar. According to this tradition the act of recital is being performed by Muhammad, with the angel Gabriel playing the role of superior authority.[19]

I enlarged the text for you.

This is refering to something else, WinterHold. The prophet did choose companions to write down the Qur'an whenever it was revealed to him. But the writings were scattered on all kinds of supports. It's impossible for you to establish the authenticity of the Qur'an based on these writings. On the other hand, we have many many Muslims, including children, who could recite the Qur'an verbatim. The perfect match between recitations is what proved -and still proves- the authenticity of the Qur'an, not these scattered writings. The real collection of the Qur'an started after the Battle of Yamama.

Oral transmission is the main advantage of Islam over christian texts, Christians have no authentic sayings of Jesus, no chain of narators ending with Jesus exists anywhere. So they have no way to defend the written book that exists today. And it's common knowledge today that the so called Q source is lost.

There is another strong proof why the hadiths are a must:

19:59 : But they were succeeded by generations who neglected prayer and followed their lusts and so will soon face the evil consequence

As you can see, even neglecting prayers - let alone not prayng at all- is condemned in Islam with strong words. As I told you before, there is no way to figure out how to pray, in detail, from the Qur'an.

What Muhammad's companions did was observing Muhammad pray then do and say the exact same things. Muhammad's sayings and moves in prayer are not in the Qur'an.

He prayed five times a day, this is not in the Qur'an. In particular, the noon prayer is not in the Qur'an anywhere, but everyone saw Muhammad regularly perform it.

Now comes the real problem with your understanding of hadiths : Do you think you understand the Qur'an better than Muhammad's companions, most of them highly proficient in Classical Arabic, and also astute military leaders ? ? Do you think you understand Muhammad's teachings better than the people who lived with him ? better than his own wife Aisha ? -because she reported many many hadiths too.

Their being astute military leaders also goes a long way to explaining the content of the text. Anywho, magic book plugged along for awhile as a limited act in a mostly illiterate culture until those astute warlords managed to conquer their neighbors, capturing and enslaving the means of literary production. It was then that magic book as an item really took off.

Primary islamic sources...150-300 years after the events described.

@WinterHold - bigger font proves nothing.

(December 11, 2020 at 2:27 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Their being astute military leaders also goes a long way to explaining the content of the text.  Anywho, magic book plugged along for awhile as a limited act in a mostly illiterate culture until those astute warlords managed to conquer their neighbors, capturing and enslaving the means of literary production.  It was then that magic book as an item really took off.

Primary islamic sources...150-300 years after the events described.

Nothing really in the Qur'an confirms you theory here. Besides, the writing of the Qur'an ended under the third caliph Uthman, twenty years after Muhammad's death. And all what was written is based on multiple oral recitations that are compared together.

Another good anecdote : the Birmingham Quran manuscript was dated between 568 and 645 CE. Muhammad's prophetic career was between 610 and 632 CE.

I knew you'd take a hard left from history and into apologism soon enough. See, another thing you both have in common.

Quote:In one report, 'Umar was once looking for the text of a specific verse of the Quran on stoning as a punishment for adultery, which he remembered. Later, he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse had been killed in the battle of Yamama and as a result the verse was lost. Some of the Companions recalled that same verse, one person being 'A'isha, Muhammad's youngest wife. She is believed to have said that a sheet on which two verses, including the one on stoning, were under her bedding and that after Muhammad died, a domestic animal got into the room and ate the sheet.

....lol, so..there's our source, just flat out lettin goats eat the word of god, which she was using to stuff her mattress.

Not like it was important, just a trifling thing about stoning sluts. When you think about it, she may have had good reason to "lose" that one. Over here it's usually the dog that ate it - but we like dogs, so.

(December 11, 2020 at 2:44 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I knew you'd take a hard left from history and into apologism soon enough.  See, another thing you both have in common.  

Quote:In one report, 'Umar was once looking for the text of a specific verse of the Quran on stoning as a punishment for adultery, which he remembered. Later, he discovered that the only person who had any record of that verse had been killed in the battle of Yamama and as a result the verse was lost. Some of the Companions recalled that same verse, one person being 'A'isha, Muhammad's youngest wife. She is believed to have said that a sheet on which two verses, including the one on stoning, were under her bedding and that after Muhammad died, a domestic animal got into the room and ate the sheet.

....lol, so..there's our source, just flat out lettin goats eat the word of god.

This report, popular among christian propaganda websites, is not authentic. Check your sources before copypasta please.

Uh oh, authenticity issues? Tell me more.

Heres the source on that one, btw.

Modarressi, Hossein (1993). "Early Debates on the Integrity of the Qur'an: A Brief Survey". Studia Islamica. Maisonneuve and Larose.

(December 11, 2020 at 2:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Uh oh, authenticity issues?  Tell me more.

Heres the source on that one, btw.  

Modarressi, Hossein (1993). "Early Debates on the Integrity of the Qur'an: A Brief Survey". Studia Islamica. Maisonneuve and Larose.

That's not the source, Nudger. That's the book quoting the source....

I'll save you some minutes, the report is forged, that didn't prevent it from becoming popular, just as the satanic verses report [forged too].

(December 11, 2020 at 2:18 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(December 11, 2020 at 12:28 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I enlarged the text for you.

This is refering to something else, WinterHold. The prophet did choose companions to write down the Qur'an whenever it was revealed to him. But the writings were scattered on all kinds of supports. It's impossible for you to establish the authenticity of the Qur'an based on these writings. On the other hand, we have many many Muslims, including children, who could recite the Qur'an verbatim. The perfect match between recitations is what proved -and still proves- the authenticity of the Qur'an, not these scattered writings. The real collection of the Qur'an started after the Battle of Yamama.

Oral transmission is the main advantage of Islam over christian texts, Christians have no authentic sayings of Jesus, no chain of narators ending with Jesus exists anywhere. So they have no way to defend the written book that exists today. And it's common knowledge today that the so called Q source is lost.

There is another strong proof why the hadiths are a must:

19:59 : But they were succeeded by generations who neglected prayer and followed their lusts and so will soon face the evil consequence

As you can see, even neglecting prayers - let alone not prayng at all- is condemned in Islam with strong words. As I told you before, there is no way to figure out how to pray, in detail, from the Qur'an.

What Muhammad's companions did was observing Muhammad pray then do and say the exact same things. Muhammad's sayings and moves in prayer are not in the Qur'an.

He prayed five times a day, this is not in the Qur'an. In particular, the noon prayer is not in the Qur'an anywhere, but everyone saw Muhammad regularly perform it.

Now comes the real problem with your understanding of hadiths : Do you think you understand the Qur'an better than Muhammad's companions, most of them highly proficient in Classical Arabic, and also astute military leaders ? ? Do you think you understand Muhammad's teachings better than the people who lived with him ? better than his own wife Aisha ? -because she reported many many hadiths too.

No. The Quran was written when Mohammed was alive; most Muslims believe in that, full stop.

Second thing, you don't have  the right to judge how much I pray, only God can judge me, that is non of your business troll. Full stop.

Third, this topic is not about how many times we pray, please stick to the context, open a separate topic for the numbers of prayers.