(December 16, 2020 at 3:53 pm)WinterHold Wrote: But look at the chronological order of these events which science proved:
1-The moon gets dimmer
2-The moon falls into earth in the form of debris
3-The sun eats the earth with the moon's remains on it

1. And then it gets brighter.
2. And then it turns into a ring, the most amazing part, IMHO.
3. Not established that the sun will actually engulf the earth.

Quote:Bottom line: the conclusion of this verse is that the moon and the sun are joined in the future, and that is proved by science to happen.

Nope (for the 10^10000th time)

Your interpretation* of this verse is that the moon and the sun are joined in the future, and that is currently predicted by science to happen

There are two problems with that:
#1 You are most certainly wrong
#2 Science could be wrong


*based on pulling it out of your islamist ass

If picking my nose was the prime reason for an apocalypse, certainly Muslims would be scrambling and ultimately finding a verse to support that they'd already known that my nose picking would lead to the world ending.

(December 17, 2020 at 6:54 am)WinterHold Wrote:

(December 16, 2020 at 9:48 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: No, it really isn't. It is superficially similar to certain aspects of the scientific explanation once you've done some post hoc cherry picking and misinterpretation.

No post hoc. Read the verse again and realize that this was said 1400 years ago.

Quote:No it won't. First, the moon would not be getting dimmer, the sun would be getting brighter. The moon would not be dimmed. Second, and more importantly, the moon shines by reflected light. That means that as the sun gets brighter so does the moon. This is the opposite of what verse 8 says. Thank you for using modern science to demonstrate just how wrong the Quran is. Again. In case there was ever any doubt.

It will get dimmer and probably humans won't even see it on that day because the red giant's light would be so strong and close to both earth and the moon. So if you will see the stronger light; not the weaker light.

You neglect that earth will be so close to the red giant, so close that it will swallow it later on. If our planet was faraway from the sun I might believe you, but never if the earth is proven to end up inside the sun.

look at the picture in this link again: (this is earth facing the red giant)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o...far_future

Except the people on the night side of the planet, who will only see the moon brighten. The people on the dayside won't see the moon just like they don't now.

If I were you, I wouldn't go around accusing others of doing things "just to make it look like they knew what the fuck they were talking about." (paraphrase)

I've gotta ask, what's the point? Let's say that magic book did predict the future? Are we supposed to join your club on account of that? Is that what you think the problem is, Winter? That, if only more people believed that magic books were crystal balls...there'd be more islamists and sharia in the world?

I'd like to point out that a huge number of people already do believe that magic books are crystal balls, and still don't have any interest in joining your club. I have even less interest than those people..and I suspect that the majority of the people here at AF are in that boat with me.

You couldn't go about this in a worse way if you tried - and that's why you've been failing.

(December 17, 2020 at 11:33 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I've gotta ask, what's the point? Let's say that magic book did predict the future? Are we supposed to join your club on account of that? Is that what you think the problem is, Winter? That, if only more people believed that magic books were crystal balls...there'd be more islamists and sharia in the world?

I'd like to point out that a huge number of people already do believe that magic books are crystal balls, and still don't have any interest in joining your club. I have even less interest than those people..and I suspect that the majority of the people here at AF are in that boat with me.

You couldn't go about this in a worse way if you tried - and that's why you've been failing.

No, I think he wants us to accept it for his own sake—it provides validation to his beliefs which usually most of the believers are inherently insecure about.

When more people believe in something you do, it gives strength to the belief which is otherwise standing on fragile stilts. This exercise is no more than strengthening his own self-justification—the more he looks around the more he sees a world different than from his belief system and this creates dissonance—the greater the dissonance (that is, reality is different than magic book) the greater the anxiety/pain.

To reduce that pain he needs to self-justify things that may not be true but still help to reduce the dissonance.

(December 17, 2020 at 11:33 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I've gotta ask, what's the point?  Let's say that magic book did predict the future?  Are we supposed to join your club on account of that?  Is that what you think the problem is, Winter?  That, if only more people believed that magic books were crystal balls...there'd be more islamists and sharia in the world?  

I'd like to point out that a huge number of people already do believe that magic books are crystal balls, and still don't have any interest in joining your club.  I have even less interest than those people..and I suspect that the majority of the people here at AF are in that boat with me.

You couldn't go about this in a worse way if you tried - and that's why you've been failing.

If prophetic accuracy and clarity are the standards by which the truth of a religion is to be judged, we couldn’t (as mentioned earlier) do much better than Ancient Greek beliefs.

I sincerely hope Winter records the next time he sacrifices a bullock to Zeus and posts it here.

Boru

Oh, we're long past wondering whether our friend Winter gets some validation from our little community. Obviously I pick at him for it - but to one extent or another we're all here for that, or getting that from being here. That believers are willing to twist themselves into a giant gordian knot to maintain their belief is unremarkable - and I'm familiar with the experience...we're all familiar with the experience.

We can grant, to anyone, for anything, the notion that - if we believed what they did about a magic book - we might believe in a god. What I hope that Winter gets from hanging out with apostates and heretics and other assorted undesirables like us, is that this bnelief in magic books and gods isn;t really the or any underlying justification for their religious beliefs.

They believe those things for reason unrelated to whether they get their interpretation of a magic book right, or whether the book is actually magic. They should lead with that, if they want to explain the actual reasons for their beliefs. Particularly and especially if they, as they and we all invariably do, wish to have more people assume and share those beliefs.

---

@BrianSoddingBoru4

Don't even get me started on the sophisticated and very specific intelligence network that the o at d represented, lol. I will bore the living shit out of anyone alive ranting about that one.

Speak for yourself, dude. I'm here for the delicious Schadenfreude.

(December 11, 2020 at 6:19 pm)Apollo Wrote: While there are various points of logical failures in the debate about god itself, Islam further has notions that add to it exponantially.  For example, the whole religion itself hinges on a very narrow narrative that Mo supposedly spoke to an angel in a cave.  That's it. That's the whole premise of Islam on which it further builds the quranic and hadith and everything else.

This narrative in itself is never really questions.  Kinda like virgin birth (or some other stupid shit-fact) in Christianity.  It's just taken on it face value and never really questioned the very possibility of it.

It's because taking this narrative at face value makes more sense than other explanations, the best explanation of everything Muhammad did is simply that his prophecy is genuine. It's unbelievable that modern historians of Islam concede that Muhammad was sincere, which really leaves one with two choices : either mental illness, something like motor seizures of temporal lobe epilepsy, the result of its spells are the Qur'an, or that the revelations really came from some agent outside of him.

The diagnosis of epilepsy is only defended within the circles of christian polemics. Orientalists like W. Montgomery Watt or Theodor Noldëke completely reject it.