(December 18, 2020 at 6:10 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I only mentioned that it isn’t illegal because you falsely accused Flynn of committing a crime.

Actually, I'm not sure that Flynn isn't committing a crime.  Plotting to overthrow the constitution of the U.S. is sedition.  Sure, the average person talking shit isn't illegal.  But when you are actually proposing it to an unstable president, I'm not sure that isn't plotting a criminal act.  At what point does talk become a plot?

(December 20, 2020 at 8:53 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:

(December 18, 2020 at 6:10 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I only mentioned that it isn’t illegal because you falsely accused Flynn of committing a crime.

Actually, I'm not sure that Flynn isn't committing a crime.  Plotting to overthrow the constitution of the U.S. is sedition.  Sure, the average person talking shit isn't illegal.  But when you are actually proposing it to an unstable president, I'm not sure that isn't plotting a criminal act.  At what point does talk become a plot?

What Flynn did was list what the President could do. There isn’t anything seditious about mentioning the authority the President has, particularly since (according to my exhaustive research of looking at two opinion pieces) the President doesn’t actually have that power - in this circumstance - at all.

Boru

"What Flynn did was list what the President could do."

Okay, conspiracy.

I think Brian is actually on to something that perhaps no one else here is willing to admit. Trump has exposed the deep, festering split in our country that we've been ignoring for decades. Just as Lincoln's election forced the rift of slavery that had been there for decades to a breaking point, I believe Trump has done something similar. The chasm is there for everyone to see. The next "trump" may force it to finally break apart and I see no reason that Republican voters will return to voting habits of the George H W Bush era. Tea Party politics are replacing Lincoln Republican values and they've shown they have big numbers. I'm convinced it is just a matter of time before the US will break apart. 10 years ago I thought this might fester for another half century, but now I'm thinking any election cycle could trigger the collapse. Trump could have pulled off his coup if he had prepared for this earlier, but his own lack planning and discipline worked against him. Just look at Giuliani and Powers. If Trump had placed people this deraigned in key government and military posts months ago, he could have counted on them to do his bidding. Declaring martial law doesn't need any legal support. All it needs is a general or two who supports him and the next thing you know, there's thousands of troops marching into Georgia and he's running a new election, one where Trump wins 98% of the votes. With 74 million voters agreeing with him, he wouldn't get a ton of resistance. He would be the President again and would likely go on to a third term or install one of his brainless progeny as the first American Emperor. We've seen this movie before.

(December 21, 2020 at 10:51 am)Spongebob Wrote: I think Brian is actually on to something that perhaps no one else here is willing to admit.  Trump has exposed the deep, festering split in our country that we've been ignoring for decades.  Just as Lincoln's election forced the rift of slavery that had been there for decades to a breaking point, I believe Trump has done something similar.  The chasm is there for everyone to see.  The next "trump" may force it to finally break apart and I see no reason that Republican voters will return to voting habits of the George H W Bush era.  Tea Party politics are replacing Lincoln Republican values and they've shown they have big numbers.  I'm convinced it is just a matter of time before the US will break apart.  10 years ago I thought this might fester for another half century, but now I'm thinking any election cycle could trigger the collapse.  Trump could have pulled off his coup if he had prepared for this earlier, but his own lack planning and discipline worked against him.  Just look at Giuliani and Powers.  If Trump had placed people this deraigned in key government and military posts months ago, he could have counted on them to do his bidding.  Declaring martial law doesn't need any legal support.  All it needs is a general or two who supports him and the next thing you know, there's thousands of troops marching into Georgia and he's running a new election, one where Trump wins 98% of the votes.  With 74 million voters agreeing with him, he wouldn't get a ton of resistance.  He would be the President again and would likely go on to a third term or install one of his brainless progeny as the first American Emperor.  We've seen this movie before.

^^^^^^^ This.

Never in my life would I have ever thought that our military would have to make public statements saying they would not get involved in negating an election.

It isn't about one man. It is about the long term damage Trump can cause, even after he leaves office. 

Germany didn't fall in a day. It took over a decade to go from an open democracy to a fascist state.

We got a breather with Biden, but democracy has to be defended from generation to generation. It isn't a given.

Right now I don't see America falling, but we will get pockets of domestic terrorists for sure. But that cannot grow and we cant let his far gone base on the extreme right grow. 

I most certainly want to be wrong and everything will be ok. But the fact that Trump got elected in the first place still should be a warning not to take anything for granted.

(December 21, 2020 at 11:05 am)Brian37 Wrote: ^^^^^^^ This.

Never in my life would I have ever thought that our military would have to make public statements saying they would not get involved in negating an election.

It isn't about one man. It is about the long term damage Trump can cause, even after he leaves office. 

Germany didn't fall in a day. It took over a decade to go from an open democracy to a fascist state.

We got a breather with Biden, but democracy has to be defended from generation to generation. It isn't a given.

Right now I don't see America falling, but we will get pockets of domestic terrorists for sure. But that cannot grow and we cant let his far gone base on the extreme right grow. 

I most certainly want to be wrong and everything will be ok. But the fact that Trump got elected in the first place still should be a warning not to take anything for granted.

Yes, I agree with everything you said.  The only question I have is what can we do?  How do we stop the growth of this demented ideology?  Trump's ideology is that of protectionism, racism, nationalism and he embraces religion as a way to inspire support.  Trump doesn't have a religious bone in his body.  Hitler used all of these same elements and he had the backing of a large swath of the population because in the short term, his tactics produced the results that mattered to them.  I can tell you that of the people I know who are Trump supporters, they feel the same way even though I know the reality is much more complicated.  All they see is low unemployment and high stock market and think Trump is a genius.  How do we convince them otherwise?

(December 21, 2020 at 9:09 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: "What Flynn did was list what the President could do."

Okay, conspiracy.

The President can sign legislation into law, veto legislation, pardon people, issue executive orders, nominate judges and cabinet appointees, and declare disasters.

Am I now part of a conspiracy?

Boru

(December 21, 2020 at 10:51 am)Spongebob Wrote: I think Brian is actually on to something that perhaps no one else here is willing to admit.  Trump has exposed the deep, festering split in our country that we've been ignoring for decades.  Just as Lincoln's election forced the rift of slavery that had been there for decades to a breaking point, I believe Trump has done something similar.  The chasm is there for everyone to see.  The next "trump" may force it to finally break apart and I see no reason that Republican voters will return to voting habits of the George H W Bush era.  Tea Party politics are replacing Lincoln Republican values and they've shown they have big numbers.  I'm convinced it is just a matter of time before the US will break apart.  10 years ago I thought this might fester for another half century, but now I'm thinking any election cycle could trigger the collapse.  Trump could have pulled off his coup if he had prepared for this earlier, but his own lack planning and discipline worked against him.  Just look at Giuliani and Powers.  If Trump had placed people this deraigned in key government and military posts months ago, he could have counted on them to do his bidding.  Declaring martial law doesn't need any legal support.  All it needs is a general or two who supports him and the next thing you know, there's thousands of troops marching into Georgia and he's running a new election, one where Trump wins 98% of the votes.  With 74 million voters agreeing with him, he wouldn't get a ton of resistance.  He would be the President again and would likely go on to a third term or install one of his brainless progeny as the first American Emperor.  We've seen this movie before.

Is THAT what Brian’s onto? Gosh.

Boru

(December 21, 2020 at 11:43 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The President can sign legislation into law, veto legislation, pardon people, issue executive orders, nominate judges and cabinet appointees, and declare disasters.

Am I now part of a conspiracy?

Boru

Criminal conspiracy is the agreement between two or more individuals to commit an illegal act.  If there is no agreement, then there is no crime.  So proposing an illegal act is not conspiracy, but it's certainly a shameful thing to do by someone who has taken an oath to uphold the Constitution.

---

I have to say Texas needs to make up its mind.  On one hand we have Texas secessionists and on the other we have Texans who crave to have the new Space Force Headqurters located there.  Which is it going to be, Texas?  You can't have both.

(December 21, 2020 at 12:18 pm)Spongebob Wrote:

(December 21, 2020 at 11:43 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The President can sign legislation into law, veto legislation, pardon people, issue executive orders, nominate judges and cabinet appointees, and declare disasters.

Am I now part of a conspiracy?

Boru

Criminal conspiracy is the agreement between two or more individuals to commit an illegal act.  If there is no agreement, then there is no crime.  So proposing an illegal act is not conspiracy, but it's certainly a shameful thing to do by someone who has taken an oath to uphold the Constitution.

---

I have to say Texas needs to make up its mind.  On one hand we have Texas secessionists and on the other we have Texans who crave to have the new Space Force Headqurters located there.  Which is it going to be, Texas?  You can't have both.

I agree that what Flynn said in regards to martial law is shameful. I also agree that it’s immoral and abhorrent.

But his saying it is neither seditious nor conspiratorial.

Boru