(February 15, 2021 at 4:14 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(February 15, 2021 at 6:25 am)FlatAssembler Wrote:

---

Well, maybe. Still, many atheists use the argument that hell would not be justice as an argument against its existence, and I think it is a relatively convincing argument. 

Allow me to suggest that you've misunderstood the objection in addition to misunderstanding valid inference.  Whether we sub in hell or prison, the argument is invalid for precisely the same reason.  They're both non sequiturs.

The injustice of hell is a comment on the moral status of a competent god, not the existence of hell.  Just as the injustice of a prison is a comment on the moral status of a competent system, not the existence of prisons.

Makes some sense. After all, what I said in my video regarding justice of afterlife is:

Quote:

Moderator Notice
Non-English bit removed. You’ve been told about this. Don’t do it again.

That is more of a counter-argument to For there to be justice in the world, afterlife has to exist. If all those evil people don't get punished in the afterlife, when do they get punished?, rather than an argument against the existence of afterlife itself.

An invalid argument against the existence of hell is an incredibly poor counter argument to the claim that for there to be justice in the world, an afterlife has to exist. That if all those evil people don't get punished in the afterlife, when do they get punished?

The second premise of that argument is question begging so we can discard it for the time being. If we wanted to argue the first, we would be arguing against the premise that hell is necessary to justice. To that end....the contention that hell itself is unjust seems compelling but is technically not relevant.

The claim that hell is necessary to justice is not equal to the claim that hell is just.

If, however, we focus just on the absurd claims - your notion of a prison(or hell)'s nonexistence via injustice and the faithful's question about when or where evil is punished if there's no hell can both be addressed with a functionally identical response. Bad Things™ and Bad People™ exist, none of them flit out of existence on account of their badness and if that badness isn't addressed before they -do- flit out of existence, in either case, then evil doesn't get punished. The idea that the world or some aspect of reality has to be that way because it should be that way - with reference to whatever a persons position may be. It's a variant of the naturalistic fallacy called the moralistic fallacy. Briefly, the idea that something is right because it's natural, or natural because it's right. Or the converse.

That the societal unpleasantness of a thing or state of affairs implies that this thing cannot exist. You refer to the unpleasantness of prisons, they refer to the unpleasantness of unpunished transgression.

So, btw, is the believers first premise and the silent assertion it belies - the claim that hell is necessary to justice is a claim about the nature of justice. That for justice to be instantiated in nature and by it's nature there should be such a place, therefore there is or must be such a place - if there is justice. We can point out that should be and is have a poor track record in the switch from what is natural to a thing or natural to a state of affairs described and it's moral import. Or, we could simply accept the flawed premise and conclude that..if true..then justice doesn't exist.

If justice in this world truly relied on a superstition, there's no other conclusion to be had. There's probably a whole lot more interesting stuff going on in a moralizing believers head than this little bit of wrote performance. Hell isn't a rational product - but their underlying moral contentions may be...and it may be that the rationality of those products lends it's weight in credence and credibility to those other propositions that swirl around items of local superstition.

Have you ever considered whether you believe that people should get more, exactly as much as, or less than they deserve? Does your opinion on any of those three items change when we change the thing done from good to bad? Do the good deserve more praise than their actions merit, exactly as much, or less? Do the evil deserve less punishment than their actions merit, exactly as much as, more than? Our answers to these questions as individuals are likely to shed a hell of alot of light on whether and why a given person believes in hell. The camp that posits hell is at the two poles of that axis, where evil deserves extreme punishment and human good is as mistaken and prideful a folly as praising it. That only fealty to a blood god will allow you to completely abdicate your moral responsibilities and the insisted consequences of evil, evading both poles, in a final and complete fuck you to any coherent notion of justice within or without the articles of the superstition in question. It's relatively easy to predict a persons responses about hell (and heaven) based on genuinely held answers to the question of relative desert.

Religion is a good deterrent. It served people well. The thing is that, it isn't perfect like believers want it to be. God is a literal maniac, according to the bible. AND yet, ITS OK to be a maniac, if your a Holy God.

The Grand Nudger Wrote:The claim that hell is necessary to justice is not equal to the claim that hell is just.

It is not equal. But in order to claim something is necessary for justice... you need to show at the very least that it does not make things more unjust. Infinite punishment for finite crimes makes the world less just.
Also, if you claim gun control laws are necessary for safety of a country, you need to at least show they don't make us less safe. Similarly with death penalty.

(February 17, 2021 at 4:57 am)FlatAssembler Wrote:

The Grand Nudger Wrote:The claim that hell is necessary to justice is not equal to the claim that hell is just.

It is not equal. But in order to claim something is necessary for justice... you need to show at the very least that it does not make things more unjust. Infinite punishment for finite crimes makes the world less just.

-which would simply be the price of justice if hell were necessary to justice.  

The claim that hell is necessary to justice is not equal to the claim that this life is just.

(February 17, 2021 at 7:30 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(February 17, 2021 at 4:57 am)FlatAssembler Wrote: It is not equal. But in order to claim something is necessary for justice... you need to show at the very least that it does not make things more unjust. Infinite punishment for finite crimes makes the world less just.

-which would simply be the price of justice if hell were necessary to justice.  

The claim that hell is necessary to justice is not equal to the claim that this life is just.

Hell wouldn't be price of justice, it would be infinite injustice.

You fail to understand.. No amount of bickering over the relative injustice of hell answers the claim that hell is necessary to justice. Let's use an example that I know will work for you. Making food is necessary to life. "But", we say..... "It's so damned deadly - just look at all the devastation!"

-sure, and also necessary to life. Next.

This is kinda apples and oranges question with the exception that you do have apple on one hand but orange on the other hand is completely fictional and you're merely just arguing over an empty hand.

Prisons exist, you can visit them.

If prisons DIDN'T exist, the explanation for bad tattoos would be more difficult.

Boru