Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 6:29 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
#1
Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
Hey guys! First of all I apologize for not hanging around much since I first joined. Life has been hectic.

This is an honest question as I'm genuinely curious what perspectives you all have on this. I recently read an article where a Christian apologist used the argument to atheists that they "choose not to believe in God". This claim was promptly met by much backlash in the comments, with many athiests claiming that such a thing was impossible.

In fact many of them went on to assert that we do not, and cannot by definition, choose to believe something.

Now this is very interesting to me because I have heard this argument from certain Christian denominations before (namely Calvinism, which I am not of that camp) but from the inverse idea that one cannot choose to believe God because only God can choose us. Now I am a Christian but fall under the Arminianism camp that believes in free will and the ability to choose. This was the first time I had heard a similar argument from the athiest viewpoint.

I'm puzzled by the notion though, because to assert that we do not or cannot choose what to believe is essentially akin to saying that we are incapable of willfully embracing faith (and by proxy, incapable of willfully rejecting a religious belief we've grown up into), no?

This isn't meant to be a challenge or apologetic. I'm honestly intrigued as to what the consensus is here on this.
Reply
#2
RE: Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
Can you choose to believe 1 + 1 = 3? Seriously?

What if I placed a single apple on a table and you did the same. Then we each counted, and found there are now two apples on the table.

Could you have so deluded yourself by choice into believing there should now be 3 apples on the table so that you would now be astonished to see that there are actually only two?

I can't do that. I doubt you can either.

I don't doubt that you can self-delude yourself into believing something that isn't so obviously false as 1 + 1 = 3. You just avert your eyes or plug your ears or wall off your mind when you are confronted with evidence that your belief isn't true. But atheists don't do that. We embrace evidence and once learned, cannot easily be unlearned. And why would a person who embraces logic want to deliberately delude himself.

You speak of willfully embracing faith. That is the same as deliberate, self-delusion. I can no more do that to myself than deliberately bash myself in the head with a hammer.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
Reply
#3
RE: Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
I understand your analogy but faith typically deals with things not concretely seen. You can provide visual proof that 1+1=2 with the apples and thus I would have to either ignore it or willfully delude myself in order to ignore that evidence and choose to believe 1+1=3.

But when dealing with things unseen, we can't really disprove them. Now yes, I understand that there is a burden of proof issue but that's a different topic.

I guess what I am wondering is, do you believe that by definition, faith is an impossibility? If so, why?
Reply
#4
RE: Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
Yes, I agree, we cannot chose to have faith in any particular deity.

Our parents do that for us. It's done through indoctrination. It's a psychological loophole which only works while the mind is undeveloped and we trust our parents unquestioningly as kids. If there was no child indoctrination, all corporate religions would die in one generation as they would be seen for the absurdity that they are....
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
Reply
#5
RE: Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
I think parents play a big role there, yes. But that does not explain those who embrace (or change) faith later on in life, so that cannot be the end all explanation either. If that were so, only those raised in very religious homes would remain religious, but that is not necessarily always the case.
Reply
#6
RE: Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
(June 26, 2018 at 11:18 pm)JairCrawford Wrote: I think parents play a big role there, yes. But that does not explain those who embrace (or change) faith later on in life, so that cannot be the end all explanation either. If that were so, only those raised in very religious homes would remain religious, but that is not necessarily always the case.

On youtbube there is a veteran among atheists, Matt Dilahaunty, check him out.
Reply
#7
RE: Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
No, I don't believe faith is impossible. In fact, some degree of it is necessary.

I see a doctor every 6 months to monitor my health. I have never done research to probe the man's history to find out for certain if he really is a doctor. Instead, I rely on the system which does a very good job of exposing false doctors. It is very unlikely that I would fall victim to a jaded auto mechanic who thought it might be fun to practice medicine while skipping that whole burdensome medical school thing.

I similarly do not research the supply chain of my local grocer to make sure all the produce is safe.

I don't research every driver who drives the same route I do on the freeway at 5:00 in the morning to make certain each of them are competent.

It would be impractical to live one's life like that. We are forced by necessity to practice some degree of faith.

But...

The type of faith you are talking about is literally insane, IMO. You are talking about dealing with things unseen which cannot be dis-proven and believing they are true for no other reason than you feel they should be true or you want them to be true. That is self-delusion. The ONLY way to KNOW that a thing is true is to be able to logically demonstrate that it is true - or at least to show the probability of it being true is very high.

I am honestly amazed this is not obvious to anybody. Can't you understand that your particular fantasy (Christianity) is no more likely to be true than anyone else's fantasy? The Muslims have faith equal to your own. So do the Hindus and the Buddhists. Contemporary science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard created Scientology and millions believe it with the same fervor you believe in Christianity.

The take-away here: Faith is not a way by which you can know if a thing is true. The type of faith you are talking about is self-delusion. Nothing more.

I recognize that many people are capable of self-delusion but NOT if they recognize that it IS self-delusion. That is why you cannot con yourself into believing 1 + 1 =3. You recognize that trying to do so is self-delusion. Unfortunately, you do not recognize that your religious beliefs are exactly the same thing.

We atheists DO recognize it. That is why we are no more capable of believing in fantasy religions than we are capable of believing that 1 + 1 = 3. We have looked at the evidence without blinders and can clearly see that every religion we are aware of is OBVIOUSLY invented by man. To take one of them seriously would be a self-delusion. Before we can take any of them seriously, we would need to hear a convincing argument that they might not be.

We cannot take seriously what is obviously nonsense. We cannot willingly self-delude.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
Reply
#8
RE: Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
I choose to believe four is my favorite color.
Reply
#9
RE: Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
(June 26, 2018 at 11:44 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I choose to believe four is my favorite color.

Woof!
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
Reply
#10
RE: Choosing to/not to Believe? Not Possible?
I think anyone from any religion, if they allow themselves to ask questions, will wonder about the faith of others in different religions from their own. So not everyone is completely oblivious to this. Hearing your explanation though, makes more sense. Essentially you have learned things and built up a perspective where you would have to deny too much of what you know to accept an existing religion. That makes more sense when explained rather than simply saying we can't choose what to believe.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Why do you not believe in the concept of a God? johndoe122931 110 7829 June 19, 2021 at 12:21 pm
Last Post: Mermaid
  "Why is it reasonable to believe in prisons, but not in the hell?" FlatAssembler 124 7511 February 19, 2021 at 12:11 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Who do not atheists believe? Interaktive 12 2276 March 25, 2019 at 10:46 am
Last Post: Mister Agenda
  Possible girlfriend?? Manowar 30 4774 July 26, 2018 at 6:05 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  AronRa as blunt as possible. ignoramus 7 1741 April 12, 2018 at 12:38 am
Last Post: Amarok
  Sam Harris (an atheist) says that God is possible/inevitable ThoughtCurvature 12 2962 September 5, 2017 at 5:27 am
Last Post: Edwardo Piet
  What The Hell Do People Believe In If They Don't Believe In God? MountainsWinAgain 36 8703 May 30, 2014 at 3:22 am
Last Post: Rampant.A.I.
Smile Is Unbelief Possible? Hezekiah 154 18707 March 23, 2014 at 1:41 pm
Last Post: Belev2Know
  is it possible for me to one day be a skeptic? leodeo 12 3399 February 21, 2014 at 12:25 pm
Last Post: Simon Moon
  A scientific reason to not believe? journeyinghowie 60 27988 December 5, 2012 at 7:48 am
Last Post: Fidel_Castronaut



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)