Sorry about the no quotes thing, guys. I just figured it would make more sense if I explained why I feel confident about the research I have done, personally.

Phae, your statements in this thread were about most people who have mental illnesses not needing meds, not most people who take the meds not needing them, if I remember correctly, so why argue that if you agree that it helps some and it doesn't help others?

(November 7, 2011 at 4:15 am)Shell B Wrote: Phae, your statements in this thread were about most people who have mental illnesses not needing meds, not most people who take the meds not needing them, if I remember correctly, so why argue that if you agree that it helps some and it doesn't help others?

Because the evidence suggests that most people do better in the long run without them. Granted, the margin is slim, but it is still the majority, if I remember correctly.

There is no way to prove that the majority of people with mental illness do better in the long run without them. Anyone who says they have precise statistics on the matter, is not thinking about it clearly. Firstly, you have a number who cannot afford medication, so there is not data there. Then, you have people who are not taking the right medications or are not taking them regularly. Then, you have people who are not working with their doctors and telling them they are going off their meds. Schizophrenics are notorious for losing their symptoms while on medication, assuming they are better and going off them, only to have episodes. Again, it is not something that can be labeled that way. It is far too complex, as the number of mental illnesses are vast and the number of people suffering from them even more so. Just think of the variables. One thing may work for depression for you, but not for another. It may work as an antipsychotic for yet another and so on. Let's take your case for example. There may be a medication that would have helped you. They didn't find it, but you are apparently not in the midst of an episode now and your illnesses are episodic. Will you need medicine in the future? There is no way of knowing. Could a regular exercise regimen be the answer -- yes. So, the question is, what evidence do you speak of? Remember, we are talking about mental illnesses in general. If we were to say something like psychosis the numbers would be very much skewed in favor of medication.

Can I ask why keep bringing up the exercise regimen thing?

I think that there are ways to get reliable data on this, and no one is claiming to has precise statistics on the matter. I already posted one link to some evidence.

Well, if there are no statistics, why make claims that use words like "most" and "slim margin." They suggest data that is not forthcoming.

On the exercise thing, it is a huge part of suggested treatment for common mental illnesses such as anxiety and depression. I use the example because it s a non medicinal alternative that actually works and so I feel comfortable using it as an example. I don't feel comfortable speculating about other types of non medicinal treatment.

How would you get reliable data if we know for a fact that certain mental illnesses can render a person incapable of working and securing medications? How can we get reliable data if the very nature of some of these illnesses cause patients to be uncooperative with doctors? You can't test that demographic without a lot of hard work and money and, I'm afraid, they're likely to be the worst off of the bunch.

Sorry, I just didn't find any evidence to support the argument that the majority of people with mental illness do not need medication or do do better without it. Mind you, the "in the long run" aspect of it was not introduced until recently. From what I read of that link, I only saw mention of antipsychotics given to schizophrenics. Not only is that not the only medicinal treatment for schizophrenia, it is also only one disease and one medication. The broad brush being painted with here is that of all mental illnesses. Those were the general statements being made and which I argued. If the goal posts move, this was a waste of time.

I can relate to mental illness, as I have had severe OCD in the past, mostly Pure O OCD, which isn't commonly known. A lot of the people I have talked to have used medication, but it only temporarily relieves them; it is not permanent, as when they stop taking them the symptoms appear again, and are thus, not relieved of the disorder. The best way to overcome it, from personal experience, and from innumerable cases of evidence, from those who have overcome it and those who are currently overcoming it, is to discover ways in which it will be permanent. I can't go over how I managed to overcome it on here, because, I'm guessing, none of you have experienced it, but it involved not taking medication. For anxiety disorders, the medication will only temporarily relieve it; in some cases it doesn't make any changes at all. For this, it was just a case of using known methods to change the way you thought.
Now this is just one mental illness, and I'm not sure the ways in which to overcome the perils of other disorders, but I know for some, medication is not the best route to take.
Of course other mental illnesses are different and may require urgent need of medication, but I am not familiar with other mental illnesses. But I know for some, medication is only a temporary relief.

No one's arguing that, Jolly.

The problem is, as Lewis Black once said "we're all snowflakes." Medicine is not one-size fits all - Shell has already said that. Even within the same disease people are going to react to treatments differently. It's important to accurately describe and document what's happening within YOU and have honest discussions with your doctor to find out exactly what you need. Research is only part of the puzzle. And your solution is only part of the puzzle. The hat that fits me might not fit you or the next person and so it goes. And it gets downright dangerous when you paint with a broad brush a topic that actually requires a fine tipped ink pen.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone here, but the second he/she posted a link that had "Organic" in the title it should have clued people in to be on their guard. The definition of "organic" can be twisted around to suit just about whatever a person is selling these days, including treatments and medicine that may or may not be scientifically proven to work. The idea that you shouldn't put some chemicals (like those studied and developed by humans) in your body but should put others (the ones we don't call chemicals that come out of plants or minerals but still in fact are) into a body that is suffering from possibly a chemical imbalance is just...boggling. Or depriving yourself of them at all. It doesn't work that way.

(Note - I am not a medical professional. This is written from the perspective of a patient with much experience in dealing with mental disorders.)

Oftentimes medication is used to relieve symptoms while the patient engages in therapy and leans tools to overcome the disorder. If the symptoms are so severe as to interfere with the therapeutic process and the patient can engage in therapy without medication, medication may not be necessary.

It is probably true that many if not most can overcome their disorder without long-term use of medications. Unfortunately, over-prescription is common (at least in the USA), and may people are put on psychotropics long-term who would be better served by effective therapy.

From my own personal experience with anxiety, there is some truth that medication may not be the best way to treat the disorder long term. I don't have any citations handy, but studies have shown that CBT and DBT are more effective than typical anxiolytics (e.g. benzeodiazepines such as Xanax) for treatment of anxiety. However, learning the tools that CBT / DBT provide takes time, and short-term use of anxiolytics seems appropriate to relieve distressing symptoms in the short term. I personally used benzodiazepines as front-line defense against anxiety for three years, but then again, at the time I had bigger fish to fry in the mental health department.

Once a patient learns to apply the tools provided in therapy, medications can oftentimes be withdrawn. There are cases where they can't - e.g. where the disorder is biologic rather than psychological in nature. Most "ordinary" cases of depression, anxiety, etc don't fall into that category. Unfortunately, as I said, over-prescription is common, and therapy is more difficult than taking a pill.

I'm glad you were able to overcome the challenges you faced without depending on medication. It's hard work.

(November 7, 2011 at 7:52 am)JollyForr Wrote: I can relate to mental illness, as I have had severe OCD in the past, mostly Pure O OCD, which isn't commonly known. A lot of the people I have talked to have used medication, but it only temporarily relieves them; it is not permanent, as when they stop taking them the symptoms appear again, and are thus, not relieved of the disorder. The best way to overcome it, from personal experience, and from innumerable cases of evidence, from those who have overcome it and those who are currently overcoming it, is to discover ways in which it will be permanent. I can't go over how I managed to overcome it on here, because, I'm guessing, none of you have experienced it, but it involved not taking medication. For anxiety disorders, the medication will only temporarily relieve it; in some cases it doesn't make any changes at all. For this, it was just a case of using known methods to change the way you thought.
Now this is just one mental illness, and I'm not sure the ways in which to overcome the perils of other disorders, but I know for some, medication is not the best route to take.
Of course other mental illnesses are different and may require urgent need of medication, but I am not familiar with other mental illnesses. But I know for some, medication is only a temporary relief.

---

(November 7, 2011 at 8:10 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: I'm sorry if this offends anyone here, but the second he/she posted a link that had "Organic" in the title it should have clued people in to be on their guard.

That's a pet peeve of mine (the "Organic" label).

Acetone and benzene are organic compounds. Does this mean that consuming them is good for me? Must investigate further.

I know it's been stated but as someone who has spent his entire adult life struggling with depression and meeting people with all kinds of mental illnesses I need to reiterate that there is no one cure that will work for everyone. They are very complex issues that deal with our most complex organ, the brain. Each person experiences them differently due to their chemical makeup and experience. Each person must discover what works for them and what does work might not work for someone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKTG05rw2iw