(June 16, 2021 at 9:55 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: That sounds like you're implying that God isn't omniscient and therefore needs to conduct studies to make sure he/she/its/their research is valid.

Hmm it implies that information interferes with people's choices.

If I had said that spoiling a movie for someone affects whether they'll go watch it, would you have concluded that God is a film director instead?

(June 16, 2021 at 11:33 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(June 16, 2021 at 9:55 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: That sounds like you're implying that God isn't omniscient and therefore needs to conduct studies to make sure he/she/its/their research is valid.

Hmm it implies that information interferes with people's choices.

If I had said that spoiling a movie for someone affects whether they'll go watch it, would you have concluded that God is a film director instead?

I liken it more to driving with a cop behind you - you might drive more carefully, but you aren’t compelled to do so. In fact, you should logically drive no differently from when a cop ISN’T behind you. You know cops are out there, and you know you’ll be punished if you’re caught doing the wrong thing. 

Boru

(June 16, 2021 at 11:36 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 16, 2021 at 11:33 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: Hmm it implies that information interferes with people's choices.

If I had said that spoiling a movie for someone affects whether they'll go watch it, would you have concluded that God is a film director instead?

I liken it more to driving with a cop behind you - you might drive more carefully, but you aren’t compelled to do so. In fact, you should logically drive no differently from when a cop ISN’T behind you. You know cops are out there, and you know you’ll be punished if you’re caught doing the wrong thing. 

Boru

^^^^^^^^ So much this. 

It shouldn't take a cosmic Big Brother watching you every nanosecond of your life.

As far as the driving analogy, I agree. Obeying traffic laws and driving safely are things one should want to do, not feel like they are forced to do it. And that is as much a matter of logic. If you tailgate, for example, you are far more likely to rear-end someone than if you keep your distance. So if one is selfish, even then if you keep your distance you save yourself money on insurance and possible medical bills. Once you start thinking like that, there is no need for the cosmic sky camera.

(June 16, 2021 at 11:51 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 16, 2021 at 11:36 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: I liken it more to driving with a cop behind you - you might drive more carefully, but you aren’t compelled to do so. In fact, you should logically drive no differently from when a cop ISN’T behind you. You know cops are out there, and you know you’ll be punished if you’re caught doing the wrong thing. 

Boru

^^^^^^^^ So much this. 

It shouldn't take a cosmic Big Brother watching you every nanosecond of your life.

As far as the driving analogy, I agree. Obeying traffic laws and driving safely are things one should want to do, not feel like they are forced to do it. And that is as much a matter of logic. If you tailgate, for example, you are far more likely to rear-end someone than if you keep your distance. So if one is selfish, even then if you keep your distance you save yourself money on insurance and possible medical bills. Once you start thinking like that, there is no need for the cosmic sky camera.

Not the point. Alligators aren’t even native to Europe, and people who prefer milk chocolate to dark chocolate are really preferring the taste of sugar to the taste of chocolate.

Boru

(June 15, 2021 at 8:17 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: I think a "maximally good" being would have no free will.  It would be forced, by its nature, to only do what is maximally good.  No other choice would be possible.

Therefore, the current state of the world is the only possible result of a maximally-good god, or else we must assume that the god is impotent.

You're not the first one to play this little game. "Can God create a stone so heavy he can't lift ?" is a similar kind of objection. Is that the best you can do?

Yours is simply : "Can God be less good than maximally good?"

I mean.. grow up.

---

(June 16, 2021 at 9:52 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Pretty sure that part of the portfolio of an omnipotent being is being able to convince a mere mortal that's what they are. If God can't convince me he/she/it/they exist, God is not omnipotent, Q.E.D.

Being convinced also entails personal effort and free will. A God won't punish someone who is sincere but not convinced.

(June 17, 2021 at 12:23 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(June 15, 2021 at 8:17 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: I think a "maximally good" being would have no free will.  It would be forced, by its nature, to only do what is maximally good.  No other choice would be possible.

Therefore, the current state of the world is the only possible result of a maximally-good god, or else we must assume that the god is impotent.

You're not the first one to play this little game. "Can God create a stone so heavy he can't lift ?" is a similar kind of objection. Is that the best you can do?

Yours is simply : "Can God be less good than maximally good?"

I mean.. grow up.

I dont see how Happy's criticism does not apply.

One cannot claim the attribute of "all" as in "all powerful" as in "omni" then move the goal posts when it isn't convenient.

Logically speaking the concept of "all powerful" always falls apart. 

If this God can't do evil, then you have limited it's power. If it can, then you cannot logically call it all good.

It is moving the goal posts. 

This is a mind trap you have fallen for. You unwittingly have put yourself in the position of being a lab rat, a poker chip.

The only reason theists defend their God claims, regardless of label, is that it coincides with their own desires.

If you believe in a God, that is all knowing, and all seeing, and can prevent harm to humans every time, then why does the data not bear that out by human observation? Why do Sunnis and Shiites murder each other? Why do Jews and Muslims murder each other? Why does this "all loving" God let children get cancer? Why does he sit on his hands when innocent children like Polly Klass or Adam Walsh get kidnapped and raped and butchered? 

If this alleged being has human's best interest at heart, then it is the biggest selective deadbeat in history. 

I think it makes perfect sense to point out one cannot claim "all" if this God cannot create a rock so big even he can't lift it. If he can, he is not "all powerful" if he can't he also not "all powerful".

And I really could care less if you called this alleged being "Allah" or "Yahweh" or "Jesus" or "Thor" or "Zeus s" or "Yoda".

Humans worldwide socialize behind labels of religion, because most youth in the world get sold the beliefs of their parents prior to the ability to formulate adult critical thinking skills. Wanting any "god/GOD/or gods to be real, does not make them real by default. Reality is messy, and not a utopia. Good and bad are not explained by old mythology.

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I dont see how Happy's criticism does not apply.

One cannot claim the attribute of "all" as in "all powerful" as in "omni" then move the goal posts when it isn't convenient.

God is obviously capable of being unfair and not maximally good. What you're missing here is that, in a theistic world, the very definition of good is what God decides to do, not the other way around. Nobody here or any human can have a personal definition of good then impose it on God.

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If this God can't do evil, then you have limited it's power. If it can, then you cannot logically call it all good.

We already know God can do evil -he gave humans all the power to inflict huge suffering on one another. Nobody is arguing that, not even theists. So, what goal posts were you talking about ?

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: The only reason theists defend their God claims, regardless of label, is that it coincides with their own desires.

This is ridiculous. I myself prefer a world without constraints on personal desires/sensual pleasures or personal beliefs. All people do. It's simply not up to me, or to anyone.

The Qur'an says, explicitely : Say, “If your parents, your children, your siblings, your spouses, your relatives, the wealth you have acquired, business you worry about, and homes you love, are dearer to you than Allah, and His Messenger, and striving in His way, then wait until Allah brings about His judgment.” Allah does not guide the rebellious people.

The Qur'an says in very explicit terms that I should prefer Allah and his Messenger over my wife, my children and my relatives.
Um.. you still think the Qur'an coincides with our own desires ?

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If you believe in a God, that is all knowing, and all seeing, and can prevent harm to humans every time, then why does the data not bear that out by human observation? Why do Sunnis and Shiites murder each other? Why do Jews and Muslims murder each other? Why does this "all loving" God let children get cancer? Why does he sit on his hands when innocent children like Polly Klass or Adam Walsh get kidnapped and raped and butchered? 

Because he also created an afterlife... duh. What makes you think that we are better off, right now, than some murdered child? He could be living in heavenly pleasure while we are struggling with all kinds of daily obligations, emotions, responsibility,...

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Humans worldwide socialize behind labels of religion, because most youth in the world get sold the beliefs of their parents prior to the ability to formulate adult critical thinking skills. Wanting any "god/GOD/or gods to be real, does not make them real by default. Reality is messy, and not a utopia. Good and bad are not explained by old mythology.

In a world without god, good and bad make even less sense than they already do. At least we have a fixed definition of these words under theism.

What do you imagine the fixed definitions under theism to be? How would you, under theism, explain why crushing someone's skull with a rock is bad? Anything that refers to something about skulls and rocks and people seems available to anyone who accepts the existence of skulls and rocks and people, don't you think? I'm wondering where you find room for a god, and why you think cramming one in is an advantage.

When you say that good and bad make less sense, are we to take this as some sort of personal profession..wherein right now, it doesn't make sense to you at all, and if you believed for an instant that there were no gods........

(June 17, 2021 at 1:02 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: In a world without god, good and bad make even less sense than they already do. At least we have a fixed definition of these words under theism.

Show me the world with god and the world without one, then we can compare the two.

(June 17, 2021 at 1:02 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: I dont see how Happy's criticism does not apply.

One cannot claim the attribute of "all" as in "all powerful" as in "omni" then move the goal posts when it isn't convenient.

God is obviously capable of being unfair and not maximally good. What you're missing here is that, in a theistic world, the very definition of good is what God decides to do, not the other way around. Nobody here or any human can have a personal definition of good then impose it on God.

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If this God can't do evil, then you have limited it's power. If it can, then you cannot logically call it all good.

We already know God can do evil -he gave humans all the power to inflict huge suffering on one another. Nobody is arguing that, not even theists. So, what goal posts were you talking about ?

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: The only reason theists defend their God claims, regardless of label, is that it coincides with their own desires.

This is ridiculous. I myself prefer a world without constraints on personal desires/sensual pleasures or personal beliefs. All people do. It's simply not up to me, or to anyone.

The Qur'an says, explicitely : Say, “If your parents, your children, your siblings, your spouses, your relatives, the wealth you have acquired, business you worry about, and homes you love, are dearer to you than Allah, and His Messenger, and striving in His way, then wait until Allah brings about His judgment.” Allah does not guide the rebellious people.

The Qur'an says in very explicit terms that I should prefer Allah and his Messenger over my wife, my children and my relatives.
Um.. you still think the Qur'an coincides with our own desires ?

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: If you believe in a God, that is all knowing, and all seeing, and can prevent harm to humans every time, then why does the data not bear that out by human observation? Why do Sunnis and Shiites murder each other? Why do Jews and Muslims murder each other? Why does this "all loving" God let children get cancer? Why does he sit on his hands when innocent children like Polly Klass or Adam Walsh get kidnapped and raped and butchered? 

Because he also created an afterlife... duh. What makes you think that we are better off, right now, than some murdered child? He could be living in heavenly pleasure while we are struggling with all kinds of daily obligations, emotions, responsibility,...

(June 17, 2021 at 12:45 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Humans worldwide socialize behind labels of religion, because most youth in the world get sold the beliefs of their parents prior to the ability to formulate adult critical thinking skills. Wanting any "god/GOD/or gods to be real, does not make them real by default. Reality is messy, and not a utopia. Good and bad are not explained by old mythology.

In a world without god, good and bad make even less sense than they already do. At least we have a fixed definition of these words under theism.

No, I did not miss your point. 

Your words "God is obviously capable of being unfair and not maximally good."  ^^^^^^ See above.

Then all you are justifying is might makes right. Funny how the theists does those mental gymnastics to justify always being on top. 

I grew up with kids on my block that would pull the same shit when playing a board game or sports. If you call them out on breaking even the rules they set, they attack your scrutiny and blame you for wanting fairness.

He created an afterlife? Really, tell that to the 6 million Jews whom were gassed and shot and butchered. God, "What a gag that was that Holocaust thing, such a hoot, but now you get to hang out with me."

Come on man, can you smell the shoe shine you are shoveling? Why would I worship a being that would allow such horrors to happen, because he promises me I can hang out with him in an after party? 

If a spouse beats their partner then brings them flowers after they beat them does that make the abuse ok?

If there really were such a being as theists allege, it would have a shitload of explaining to do if you want to claim it is the ultimate being in power.