I will admit that I didn't study Marxism at all during my formative years.  As a product of southern Christianity it was basically a taboo topic for me and later on I just didn't see it as relevant anymore.  But after the last couple of election cycles, it's become more relevant than ever.  I've done a little reading on the subject but I still don't feel well educated about it.  I'm curious what others know, want to know, any judgements on Marxism, just open conversation about it.

Let's just start with this, Marxism is definitely not what the Christians and Republicans think it is.

I'm all for socialism.

(August 22, 2021 at 9:00 am)Spongebob Wrote: I will admit that I didn't study Marxism at all during my formative years.  As a product of southern Christianity it was basically a taboo topic for me and later on I just didn't see it as relevant anymore.  But after the last couple of election cycles, it's become more relevant than ever.  I've done a little reading on the subject but I still don't feel well educated about it.  I'm curious what others know, want to know, any judgements on Marxism, just open conversation about it.

Let's just start with this, Marxism is definitely not what the Christians and Republicans think it is.

(my bold)

Neither is socialism or communism. Then again the right-wing, buy-bull thumping nutjobs just conflate them all under the banner of evil political stuff when the one they really should be concerned with is fascism. But, then they wouldn't have a political banner to rally under.

Marxism is also another word that @Mashmont will refuse to define if challenged since he obviously doesn't know what it means.

(August 22, 2021 at 9:00 am)Spongebob Wrote: I will admit that I didn't study Marxism at all during my formative years.  As a product of southern Christianity it was basically a taboo topic for me and later on I just didn't see it as relevant anymore.  But after the last couple of election cycles, it's become more relevant than ever.  I've done a little reading on the subject but I still don't feel well educated about it.  I'm curious what others know, want to know, any judgements on Marxism, just open conversation about it.

Let's just start with this, Marxism is definitely not what the Christians and Republicans think it is.

The older I get the more I see labels as fucking bullshit. Be they claims of religion, politics or economic views. They all seem to be human excuses for tribalism. It isn't that one should favor oppression over openness, but in that everyone needs resources and the powers that are, and have been appeal to the masses to support them to get at resources.

As far as Marx, he was not wrong on the value of labor. But outside that, the fact that Stalin bastardized that view and created a dictatorship out of those views means that Marx never took into account that humans can twist anything to gain power.

Trump is no different to any authoritarian asshole I have read about in human history, but only in that his actions so far have not yet toppled our society.

I actually had a philosophy teacher who claimed that Marx was probably the most misunderstood thinker since Jesus Christ, possibly worse because Marx actually had to spend decades realizing that people were misunderstanding his arguments before he actually got around to dying. Admittedly, there is a huge spectrum of beliefs considered Marxism, partly because of Marx’ beliefs evolving over time and partly because of thinkers like Lenin and Mao fucking with his ideology to make it fit the square peg of his ideology with the round hole of pre-industrial societies like Russia or China, but the way I understand it, the core is: the workers own the means of production. Not the bosses, not the financiers, those who actually do the work.

And, of course, in some circles, it’s come to mean roughly, “anything a few angstroms to the left of whatever chimera of Gilead, Galt’s Gulch, and whatever dystopia based around a cult of personality you can think of that starts with the letter
G that the conservatives want. And that’s horrible.”

Yes, very good points so far. My foray into Marxism came as an accident. I was doing more reading/studying on the industrial revolution and the various revolutions that swept through France and the old German states during the 18th-19th centuries when this came into focus. Also, I only learned a few years ago that the basis for feudalism was invented during the 3rd century Roman Empire. So if viewed under an economic lens, one starts to really grasp the experience of people living under the various forms of socio-economic systems from the late Roman Empire until the industrial revolution. It makes so much more sense than just starting form the Soviet Union and working backwards.

Mark, is the sound of a hair lipped dog.

(August 22, 2021 at 9:00 am)Spongebob Wrote: Let's just start with this, Marxism is definitely not what the Christians and Republicans think it is.

And fascism isn't what Democrats say it is either....so right back at you. :-)

And you cannot talk about Marx without invoking the Hegelian dialectic...and Hegel is the last philosopher I want to discuss.

(August 22, 2021 at 12:01 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(August 22, 2021 at 9:00 am)Spongebob Wrote: Let's just start with this, Marxism is definitely not what the Christians and Republicans think it is.

And fascism isn't what Democrats say it is either....so right back at you. :-)

And you cannot talk about Marx without invoking the Hegelian dialectic...and Hegel is the last philosopher I want to discuss.

I beg to differ.  Why don't you explain.  I'll offer the definition from MW:

Definition of fascism

1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a  leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

I assume you take issue with this because progressives have called out the Trump regime as fascist.  Let's see how he compares:

Trump and most of the Republican faithful are definitively nationalists.  Slogans like "America First" are nationalistic and are embraced by Trump, et al.

Trump was definitively autocratic.  Remember his comment "I alone can fix it".  In fact, Trump himself made such claims often and almost always referred to himself as the "best" of whatever topic was in discussion.  This actually beyond authoritarianism and becomes narcissistic.

Trump wasn't a dictator, but he was certainly headed in that direction and was taking steps to become one after he lost the election.  His claims of election fraud and deep state conspiracies were all signs of an authoritarian.  He was replacing government officials with yes men.  These are common moves among authoritarians.  Trumps attempts of force Georgia election officials to manufacture votes is also an example and he has threatened dozens of people in his own party, some long time loyalists who disagreed with him only perhaps one or two issues.  He called out William Barr when Barr told him the truth about election fraud.  So Trump definitely attempted to oppress people.

Trump certainly fits the definition of fascist and by extension all of those Republicans who continue to support him do as well.  I'm not claiming that all Republicans are of course, but it definitely appears to be the new flavor for them.  And I'm pretty sure some of the most popular Republicans from history would be appalled by this shift in the party.

(August 22, 2021 at 2:18 pm)Spongebob Wrote: And I'm pretty sure some of the most popular Republicans from history would be appalled by this shift in the party.

Case in point, some bizarrely prescient words from the first Republican president: