All the people named in the wiki link had been exposed to religion prior. I don't find much to discuss, the experience is generated by a malfunctioning brain. Similar experiences have been reported with schizophrenia, hypoxia, tumors, TBI, ............

This is man driven, not god.

(September 1, 2021 at 12:16 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(September 1, 2021 at 12:09 pm)Jehanne Wrote: The Tailban would approve.  Problem is, of course, different experiences from different individuals contradict one another.  Perhaps God is speaking with a forked tongue?

Well, the Taliban wouldn't approve of James. Because James explicitly states that one ought not try to impose one's own visions on other people.

Plus, not really familiar with the religiosity of the Taliban... but they strike me as fundamentalists rather than mystics. But, like I said... not familiar enough with the topic to say.

If God told me to impose my beliefs in a vision, would I not be obligated to do so?

^ Has not read beyond the first page of the thread and is unsure what it's trying to say.

Because of an asthma attack when I was very young, I have a bit of damage in the hippocampus.*  I was oxygen deprived.  Due to this condition, I began having auras about 20 years ago.  I didn't know they were called auras.  I called them deja vu daydreams, a short flash of dreamlike images in my head accompanied by a sense that I had lived it before.  Afterward, I couldn't remember the dream and felt a little flushed and displaced for a minute.

At the time, I thought it was my body's reaction to the sleep deprivation that goes with a busy job, a toddler and an infant.  The auras would occur a few times within a few days then not at all for months or years at a time.  Ten years ago, and living alone except for when the kids were there, I woke up in a different room of the house.  It happened a few times.  Once, I woke up feeling like I had done Lou Ferrigno's leg day.  I could barely walk.  Time to figure it out.  After trips to my doctor, a few different neurologists and diagnostics, I learned I had mild epilepsy.  Gentle meds totally prevent seizures and auras for me.

All that to say:  bullshit.  Not once did I have a religious experience.  Not once did I think what was happening was anything but physical and explainable.  Anecdotal, but there you have it.


*Your mom goes to college.

(September 1, 2021 at 12:58 pm)Ranjr Wrote: Gentle meds totally prevent seizures and auras for me.

If medication would stop someone's visionary experiences, would someone like William James still say that those visions were authentic?  I suppose that he would, as he appears to have advocated belief in belief.  Or, as Dwight Eisenhower once quipped that it didn't matter to him what religion people had, as long as they had one.

(September 1, 2021 at 1:16 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 1, 2021 at 12:58 pm)Ranjr Wrote: Gentle meds totally prevent seizures and auras for me.

If medication would stop someone's visionary experiences, would someone like William James still say that those visions were authentic?  I suppose that he would, as he appears to have advocated belief in belief.  Or, as Dwight Eisenhower once quipped that it didn't matter to him what religion people had, as long as they had one.

James would be highly suspicious of a vision of God telling people to do things. James starts his investigation from the skeptical position. Namely, we can agree that "visions" have material causes... neurological causes, we'd say nowadays. He does explore the notion of otherworldly influence, but I think his arguments are weak on this account. And (most importantly) his thesis does not depend on God or any otherworldly entity being responsible for such visions. Such visions can be valuable without God.

From this perspective... and acknowledging the strength of skeptical arguments, James asks, "Can these visions be useful to the individual?" Not to dominate others with, but to escape one's own melancholy and despair. Can mystical visions play a transformative role in a person (as in taking them from a state of despair to a state of optimism)? If so, James says they have value. And he explores them in this capacity.

He also doesn't exclude atheists in all this. While the religious use a body of symbols to interpret their experiences (Christ etc.), an atheist can also find meaning in such experiences... merely using a different set of symbols (whatever is meaningful to them). He also, famously explores psychoactive drugs and their ability to induce such experiences. He's a sort of "proto-Tim Leary" in that way.

I approach his work with great skepticism, but the cool thing about James is, he matches my skepticism. At every point along the line, he makes it clear that he understands the skeptical position and even points out its merits. So (unlike Tim Leary) he doesn't get all "Froot Loops." His analysis is very grounded.

I have serious objections to James's ideas, but he's fascinating to read nonetheless.

(September 1, 2021 at 1:16 pm)Jehanne Wrote: If medication would stop someone's visionary experiences, would someone like William James still say that those visions were authentic?  I suppose that he would, as he appears to have advocated belief in belief.  Or, as Dwight Eisenhower once quipped that it didn't matter to him what religion people had, as long as they had one.

Not sure what William James would say.  I think people who are prone to interpret uncommon experiences as religious ones would do so regardless.  Jesus toast and so on.

(September 1, 2021 at 1:39 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: From this perspective... and acknowledging the strength of skeptical arguments, James asks, "Can these visions be useful to the individual?"

I have suspected that, for many, religious faith is just another aphrodisiac; for these folks,

Prayer + Delilah = good sex.

Some Muslims just don't get it, do they??

(September 1, 2021 at 3:32 pm)Jehanne Wrote:

(September 1, 2021 at 1:39 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: From this perspective... and acknowledging the strength of skeptical arguments, James asks, "Can these visions be useful to the individual?"

I have suspected that, for many, religious faith is just another aphrodisiac; for these folks,

Prayer + Delilah = good sex.

Some Muslims just don't get it, do they??

If you ask me, good sex does the job of creating spiritual satisfaction better than any mystical vision. Romantic love too.

The reason I like James is because I like to challenge my own beliefs. Many theists fail to provide a good challenge (with all their nonsense). But James actually manages to make a decent case. He isn't very ambitious... and that's part of why he succeeds. Plus he's interesting... and a very skillful writer. That helps too.

I have a question...were any of the people who supposedly experienced some religious thing during an epileptic event non-believers beforehand? Are there people out there who suddenly "saw the light" upon experiencing such an event?

I may have missed the answer to this as I wasn't really processing some of the things I read on this thread so pardon me if I am asking something that's already been addressed.

(September 1, 2021 at 5:30 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: I have a question...were any of the people who supposedly experienced some religious thing during an epileptic event non-believers beforehand?  Are there people out there who suddenly "saw the light" upon experiencing such an event?

I may have missed the answer to this as I wasn't really processing some of the things I read on this thread so pardon me if I am asking something that's already been addressed.

I think I've heard of some professed unbelievers experiencing god during NDE's, but they had been exposed to the concept of god, which is all that it would take.

Where do you find someone that has not been exposed? The dark heart of the amazon? Even they have gods.