(January 17, 2022 at 8:11 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: To be fair, most of the white adults in the book were basically written as ridiculous parodies, like the gym teacher who kept asking if what he was saying was racist every five seconds, and then you had the white Karen teacher who got his name wrong all year long, which is not a realistic situation at all and would not happen in real life, especially given that the teacher gets his name right all of a sudden when he gets in trouble.

My brother's woman French teacher called him "Paul" all year long. She preferred it to his real name. Some people are strange.

(January 17, 2022 at 8:17 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote:

(January 17, 2022 at 8:11 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: To be fair, most of the white adults in the book were basically written as ridiculous parodies, like the gym teacher who kept asking if what he was saying was racist every five seconds, and then you had the white Karen teacher who got his name wrong all year long, which is not a realistic situation at all and would not happen in real life, especially given that the teacher gets his name right all of a sudden when he gets in trouble.

My brother's woman French teacher called him "Paul" all year long.  She preferred it to his real name.  Some people are strange.

Some people like to call people "Paul" when that's not their real name. Especially when they write epistles they want canonized.

But in foreign language class, it's quite common to be assigned a different name. Not sure why. I name was "Dietrich" in high school German class. Are you sure that isn't what's going on?

(January 17, 2022 at 8:11 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(January 17, 2022 at 1:05 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: It’s one thing to accidentally misname someone. It’s another thing entirely to keep calling someone the wrong name for months on end, especially if the name you use came from another student whose only real similarity is that they’re black males.



Maybe if it was established that she had a bad memory for names, but it seems she only has that problem with black students.

To be fair, most of the white adults in the book were basically written as ridiculous parodies, like the gym teacher who kept asking if what he was saying was racist every five seconds, and then you had the white Karen teacher who got his name wrong all year long, which is not a realistic situation at all and would not happen in real life, especially given that the teacher gets his name right all of a sudden when he gets in trouble. The message of the book to be learned ends up being that black kids shouldn't take shit from their white teachers, and that they should stand up for themselves and tell their teachers off if they get their name wrong. I simply don't think this is good advice for young black kids, as they are already being suspended at a far greater rate than children of other races, so don't give the teacher another legitimate reason to suspend you.

And that was your only takeaway from the book? Not even that white people should try and be more mindful about the ways we interact with minorities? Or, fuck, even that if you're gifting something to someone because they love the Knicks, it might be good to make that connection clearer?

Hell, even with that lesson of not taking shit about misnaming, Jerry Craft pointed out that there are limitations to that approach in the story proper, where the Karen teacher finds a comic where Jordan vents his frustration about being misnamed, and she takes it as a polemic against the school itself. And that's even after the incident where Drew tells off the teacher for calling him by the name of another student who barely looks anything like him.

That said, the white adults being very obvious caricatures was probably the weakest part of the book, that much I can agree with you on.

My friend in college kept getting frustrated because people kept calling him 'Wendell'. Randy's professor was Asian, and every time he took role call he asked for "Wandle Porter."

(January 17, 2022 at 10:02 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(January 17, 2022 at 8:11 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: To be fair, most of the white adults in the book were basically written as ridiculous parodies, like the gym teacher who kept asking if what he was saying was racist every five seconds, and then you had the white Karen teacher who got his name wrong all year long, which is not a realistic situation at all and would not happen in real life, especially given that the teacher gets his name right all of a sudden when he gets in trouble. The message of the book to be learned ends up being that black kids shouldn't take shit from their white teachers, and that they should stand up for themselves and tell their teachers off if they get their name wrong. I simply don't think this is good advice for young black kids, as they are already being suspended at a far greater rate than children of other races, so don't give the teacher another legitimate reason to suspend you.

And that was your only takeaway from the book? Not even that white people should try and be more mindful about the ways we interact with minorities? Or, fuck, even that if you're gifting something to someone because they love the Knicks, it might be good to make that connection clearer?

Hell, even with that lesson of not taking shit about misnaming, Jerry Craft pointed out that there are limitations to that approach in the story proper, where the Karen teacher finds a comic where Jordan vents his frustration about being misnamed, and she takes it as a polemic against the school itself. And that's even after the  incident where Drew tells off the teacher for calling him by the name of another student who barely looks anything like him.

That said, the white adults being very obvious caricatures was probably the weakest part of the book, that much I can agree with you on.

The lessons I've learned from the book are to never give a black person a gift, just to be safe, never bring up basketball or football around black people, and just talk about hockey to be safe and make sure you don't cause any basketball triggers, and that all teachers should just call black students "hey you" so they don't risk getting their name wrong and being hanged in the town square. That's what I've learned. There are some legitimately shitty things that happened to the main character in the book, and I disavow those things, and never would have partaken in those actions.

(January 17, 2022 at 8:11 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: To be fair, most of the white adults in the book were basically written as ridiculous parodies, like the gym teacher who kept asking if what he was saying was racist every five seconds, and then you had the white Karen teacher who got his name wrong all year long, which is not a realistic situation at all and would not happen in real life, especially given that the teacher gets his name right all of a sudden when he gets in trouble. 

Bold - I dispute this.  Not at all true.  As I stated in my review, there were many varied personalities represented.  Yes, there was a gym teacher who was overly sensitive and awkward about race, but there are people like that.  He was the only character like that.  There are real people like Ms Rawls, who get people's names wrong after multiple corrections.  Would you say Alexandria was a parody?  Was Liam?  These characters were not parodies at all.  They were somewhat exaggerated, but this is a comic book for middle school students, so that's to be expected.

Quote:The message of the book to be learned ends up being that black kids shouldn't take shit from their white teachers, and that they should stand up for themselves and tell their teachers off if they get their name wrong. I simply don't think this is good advice for young black kids, as they are already being suspended at a far greater rate than children of other races, so don't give the teacher another legitimate reason to suspend you.

What does "to be fair" even mean in this context?  Doesn't matter; you are dead wrong here.

You simply did not understand this book.  The message is not just about black kids; its about fitting in.  There were multiple white kids who were dealing with issues of isolation (as I pointed out in my review) and some with personal trauma.  It was also about how people make assumptions about other people and how that is often a mistake.  Both white and black people were demonstrated doing this in the book.  And there was a ton of kids just dealing with making and maintaining friendships, which can be a problem that is often overlooked by adults.  The book simply had no such message about black people standing up for themselves; that is something you concocted yourself to justify your hatred.  So there is no such "advice" for black kids from this book.  

If there is any advice at all, which comes only in the form of Jordan learning and growing, its that everyone around you deserves some understanding (as Jordan demonstrates at the end of the book when he is kind to Andy).  There's also the advice Jordan's grandfather gives him about trying to get his friends together and not compartmentalizing his life.  There's also a warning about not assuming too much about others demonstrated by Drew when he assumes his secret santa is being tacitly racist with the gifts.  The book is full of real and important lessons that apply to different elements of life, but you are too focused on trying to find a smoking gun to see these things.  This is a case you having your mind made up about something and being inflexible when the evidence is stacked against you.

---

(January 18, 2022 at 8:23 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: The lessons I've learned from the book are to never give a black person a gift, just to be safe, never bring up basketball or football around black people, and just talk about hockey to be safe and make sure you don't cause any basketball triggers, and that all teachers should just call black students "hey you" so they don't risk getting their name wrong and being hanged in the town square. That's what I've learned. There are some legitimately shitty things that happened to the main character in the book, and I disavow those things, and never would have partaken in those actions.

You're an idiot.

---

One idea that keeps being repeated by people who reject CRT as a valid concept is that racism in the US is gone, doesn't exist anymore, so stop talking about it.  Even some here have claimed that black people have all the freedoms white people have.  I'm not even going to attempt to unpack those opinions, but I will point out that there are a whole lot of horrific things that have happened in the US that the vast majority of people (of all races) don't know about.  I wasn't taught these things in school, so the only way to learn about them is to either happen across a book or have someone tell you about it.  Things like the black wall street massacre in Tulsa, OK, government segregation of neighborhoods, the theft of inventions by black inventors, the outright theft of land/property in the name of eminent domain; the list is overwhelming.  

Yes, I did learn about the Tuskegee Airmen and we knew about the obvious things like segregation.  But that was really just the surface; there were more evil and foundational things going on that devastated black communities when the official word was that black people are full class citizens.  Basically, that's been a lie since 1865.  in 2020, my wife's book club decided to read a series of books on this subject and with every book there were more revelations.  These are the types of events that make up what CRT is and unless you are simply a cold, heartless bastard, you have to feel some level of outrage at the injustice of it all.  150 years of this doesn't vanish overnight.  That's the point of CRT and the very reaction these naysayers have is evidence of that.  Christians today cry about persecution; I'm talking current persecution.  But those who oppose the idea of CRT deny much of what has happened to the black community and is part of the historical record.

@Irreligious Atheist

I want to point out that another major theme of the book (New Kid) was the importance of being open to trying new things.  Jordan was reluctant to try the new school, he was reluctant to attend the art class even though he considered himself an artist, he was reluctant to try sports.  But those things were better than he expected and he learned from them.  Alexandria was reluctant to allow people to see her scar for fear they would make fun of her, but that turned out to be not an issue.  Liam was reluctant for Jordan to visit his home because it was grandiose and he feared Jordan would judge him, but Jordan responded well and their friendship flourished.  Even Ms Rawls was quick to judge Jordan's sketch book and reluctant to go a little deeper to understand his point of view, but eventually listened to him and came to understand him better.  This was demonstrating how people can have pre-programmed expectations about other people, but that listening and considering can open them up to understanding.  I think this is where you are, IA.  You are just projecting your programmed expectations onto this book.  Reducing this book to a simple and inane lesson that blacks need to stand up for themselves is wildly flawed and ignorant.  Its like saying the theme of Star Wars was beware of people wearing white space suits.

The chief objection to teaching Critical Race Theory (also known as ‘history’) seems to be that the people who threw rocks at Ruby Bridges for trying to go to school don’t want their grandchildren to find out that they threw rocks at Ruby Bridges for trying to go to school.

Boru

(January 18, 2022 at 11:04 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The chief objection to teaching Critical Race Theory (also known as ‘history’) seems to be that the people who threw rocks at Ruby Bridges for trying to go to school don’t want their grandchildren to find out that they threw rocks at Ruby Bridges for trying to go to school.

Boru

Very well put, especially the bold part.

The really and truly insidious part of this is those people who threw rocks at Ruby Bridges want to keep all the monuments of people like Stonewall Jackson and Robert E Lee because they are what?  ...part of our history!  And what do they love to chant?  You can't rewrite history!

(January 18, 2022 at 10:45 am)Spongebob Wrote: @Irreligious Atheist

I want to point out that another major theme of the book (New Kid) was the importance of being open to trying new things.  Jordan was reluctant to try the new school, he was reluctant to attend the art class even though he considered himself an artist, he was reluctant to try sports.  But those things were better than he expected and he learned from them.  Alexandria was reluctant to allow people to see her scar for fear they would make fun of her, but that turned out to be not an issue.  Liam was reluctant for Jordan to visit his home because it was grandiose and he feared Jordan would judge him, but Jordan responded well and their friendship flourished.  Even Ms Rawls was quick to judge Jordan's sketch book and reluctant to go a little deeper to understand his point of view, but eventually listened to him and came to understand him better.  This was demonstrating how people can have pre-programmed expectations about other people, but that listening and considering can open them up to understanding.  I think this is where you are, IA.  You are just projecting your programmed expectations onto this book.  Reducing this book to a simple and inane lesson that blacks need to stand up for themselves is wildly flawed and ignorant.  Its like saying the theme of Star Wars was beware of people wearing white space suits.

Of course, such a judgment could keep you safe, no?