Hey guys, I'm new here but I was encouraged by a few members to start my own topic so hopefully this is okay even though I just got here.

For my first topic I would like us to discuss the book of Job as it is one of my favorite books of the Bible. For me personally I have always viewed suffering as a necessary thing that tests and proves our values and convictions. But I also find that the problem of suffering is often the biggest obstacle to faith for many people. It is such a personal thing, how can a loving God allow for an innocent man to suffer? How is it that he could allow for some of the worst things to happen to some of the best people?

So simply put, this thread is dedicated to the problem of suffering in our belief system but to make the topic a little more specific (and interesting) I would also like to get your guys views on the story of Job specifically.

Seems to me that a lot of suffering is supposedly caused by the god of the Bible (at least he is powerful enough to prevent it and doesn't) and the relief from said suffering is to pray to, pay to, beg said god.

That's an abusive relationship in a nutshell.

(May 4, 2022 at 4:41 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Seems to me that a lot of suffering is supposedly caused by the god of the Bible (at least he is powerful enough to prevent it and doesn't) and the relief from said suffering is to pray to, pay to, beg said god.

That's an abusive relationship in a nutshell.

Well I would argue that far more of life's suffering is brought upon us by satan. From what I can tell God's most basic rule can be summarized as this, "you reap what you sow." This is the type of fair world that YHWH wants to establish here on Earth, however he also values free will and enables both the Angels and humans to choose between good and evil. Satan was the one who attacked Job's family, friends and cattle, not God, God simply chose not to protect Job from Satan's wrath so why are you giving the accuser a free pass to kill steal and destroy?

One can take Job as a fable that says "suffering has no reason - but faithfulness will reward you in the end" (er, too bad about the dead family, though - but you got a new better one!).

If instead read literally, it means that God is a complete jerk, who tortures Job, kills his family, just to prove to the Devil that He can do so without destroying Job's faith.

There is nothing in Job that says that suffering is for a good reason. In fact, the friends who suggest such things (either a sin committed, or a lesson to be learned) are rebuked.

Suffering can be caused by mistakes. It can be caused by the bad actions of others. It can be completely senseless and random. Resilient people can rebound from suffering while others need the help of others. Some find a silver lining in the suffering and others find depression or anger.

For myself, seeing the suffering of others convinced me that there is no god who actively intervenes for good in the world (and I was a Christian). Then, the question becomes, what exactly does God do again?

Most of life's suffering is brought on by biology, and ourselves. No fairies required.

God choosing not to protect job is a moral failure. Would you choose not to protect a man from someone who took his possessions, his health, and killed his family? That's not even the problem of suffering, that's active complicity.

Assault in progress, what do you do?

If you buy into that sort of shit - you will be happy to pay your friendly local Mafia types " protection money"......

Same thing...

(May 4, 2022 at 4:49 pm)h311inac311 Wrote:

(May 4, 2022 at 4:41 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Seems to me that a lot of suffering is supposedly caused by the god of the Bible (at least he is powerful enough to prevent it and doesn't) and the relief from said suffering is to pray to, pay to, beg said god.

That's an abusive relationship in a nutshell.

Well I would argue that far more of life's suffering is brought upon us by satan. From what I can tell God's most basic rule can be summarized as this, "you reap what you sow." This is the type of fair world that YHWH wants to establish here on Earth, however he also values free will and enables both the Angels and humans to choose between good and evil. Satan was the one who attacked Job's family, friends and cattle, not God, God simply chose not to protect Job from Satan's wrath so why are you giving the accuser a free pass to kill steal and destroy?

How is that I managed to reap breast cancer?

What did I sow that an ied planted in the ground twenty years before I was born was dispatched to pay me back for? Nearly blew my dick off, did I shake it too many times after I peed?

(May 4, 2022 at 5:02 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: What did I sow that an ied planted in the ground twenty years before I was born was dispatched to pay me back for?

Sins of the fathers and all that.

There's always a spin...you know that.

My father was a medic, and conscientious objector. Also a good christian family man..not entirely unlike job. Also lost it all, including his life..in a fucking tub...at his moms..complications of the flu.

God never gave him a new consolation family, either. My grandfather died of grief months later..I never heard him speak another lucid sentence. He just groaned..all..the...time. Then my nana passed days after.

How many puppies did my great great great great great uncle ogg have to kick for that one?