(May 4, 2022 at 11:04 pm)h311inac311 Wrote:

(May 4, 2022 at 10:49 pm)Helios Wrote: Unless the devil created himself and the devil is more powerful than god. God is without an excuse...

Lets say that someone has a knife and starts chancing a woman through the streets, and there is only one witness, a 6ft tall man who is a UFC heavyweight champion. Presumably he could defeat this knife wielding foe. But for one reason or another chooses not to. In your justice system should this fighter be charged with murder? And would the man holding the knife get off scott free?

Why would he not defeat the knife-wielding foe? What's stopping him?

(May 4, 2022 at 11:04 pm)h311inac311 Wrote:

(May 4, 2022 at 10:49 pm)Helios Wrote: Unless the devil created himself and the devil is more powerful than god. God is without an excuse...

Lets say that someone has a knife and starts chancing a woman through the streets, and there is only one witness, a 6ft tall man who is a UFC heavyweight champion. Presumably he could defeat this knife wielding foe. But for one reason or another chooses not to. In your justice system should this fighter be charged with murder? And would the man holding the knife get off scott free?

That's not a very good analogy to the Job story. A better one would be that a man with a knife meets a UFC fighter and says, 'See that woman over there? I bet I can make her scream if I chase her with this knife.' The UFC fighter says, 'Well, I could clearly stop you from doing that, but since I'd be interested to see what a screaming, terrified woman looks like, I'll just stand here and watch.' Since terrorizing someone is a criminal act, and conspiring to do so is a criminal offense, then yes - the fighter should be charged as a co-conspirator, along with the knife-wielder.

To get back to the Job story, God, by his allowing the tormenting of Job - with full knowledge of what would ensue - is every bit as guilty as Satan. Job had committed no crimes against his fellow man, no transgressions against God. God and Satan conspired to torture an innocent man for shits and giggles.

Boru

(May 4, 2022 at 10:45 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: When did I advocate for debasing myself? 
You know Jacob was attacked by YHWH right? 

Assault in progress, by god, you fall to your knees and pray...to god.  That's the definition of debasement, the literal definition. Let me ask you this. Let's say you see a standard run of the mill assault. God isn't immediately obvious..but could you risk stopping that assault...if it were somehow part of gods plan? Do you know which assaults are a a part of this plan, if..indeed..they aren't all a part of it's plan? Self defense? Maybe your assault, also part of it's plan?

I don't think you've thought this through at all, not even from your own mythology's standpoint.

Quote:And after God did what he did Job somehow wasn't as upset with the idea of God as you seem to be. I trust God, you don't trust God at all, I get that but saying that trusting that God is good is somehow the same as letting a violent stranger come to your house and do what he will with your family is a bit of a stretch. I'm sure that if Job had the chance to fight off the bandits which came for his possessions and family he would have done that and there is nothing I find in the Bible that would prevent someone from doing that, especially not during the time of the Old Covenant. 

Again, there's no need for trust.  Assault in progress.  Whatever it is you think god has planned, that you trust, this is simply what god is doing.  

Quote:But what none of you seem to be addressing is that the devil exists too, notice how he keeps getting a free pass to cause as much trouble as he wants to. Why is it that every time a scheme of the devil succeeds God receives the blame? And what about the bandits? Why don't we blame them for their behavior towards Job and his family? Are you entitled to have a hedge of protection against the wiles of the devil if you do not even believe that God exists? If you wake up and find out that random stuff happens in a randomly generated universe with no intelligent designer then I guess you shouldn't be surprised, correct?

Lets deal with one imaginary beasty at a time, shall we..besides, the minute a nut like you starts babbling about the devil I know we're going to see an about face.  

Quote:As it is written, "but know this, that if the master had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into."

I just met you on the internet so I don't know why you would trust a stranger with your back but the eternal reward of paradise is for those who remain loyal to God's commandments.

In Romans 13 these commandments are, Thou shalt not commit adultery, theft, murder, or covet that which does not belong to you and love others as you would want to be loved.

Magic book doesn't mean a thing to me, and quoting from it is unlikely to cast a spell.  I cannot be bought.  I don't do bad things for money, or any price. Imagine a god that can't understand this, and forms it's entire cult around a single transaction. Imagine some rando on the internet, a human being, who is similarly unaware?

Here we are. At least now we're flirting with the problem of evil. The problem being that you have decided to be evil..and you blame it on your god, and explain it away by some giant lollipop you hope to get a lick of. I think this is all completely disgusting. That's why I don't worship your bloodgod. Has nothing to do with me not believing in gods. I wouldn't join the club if it were a real god. I don't need to invent imaginary assholes, there are plenty here in the real world, I could join their little clubs..and they'd also be willing to pay me - but I don't. Amusingly, a lot of guys with my background went into forward observation work for private contractors. No trigger pulling, just watching. They'll pay for your eyes and ears, and especially your mouth, and saddle you with complicity. Sound familiar?

I'm familiar with wanting something so much that it tests my character. Are you? Do you think you're passing that test holding the beliefs you've espoused here? Or, if you prefer, does it never occur to you, as a believer in a good god..to suggest that story isn't entirely on the up and up? That the god you believe in would never do that, or insist you be complicit, or even that you remain silent? That its not an instruction manual from the divine about how to lay back and take it?

Concerning the story of Job.


It' s a STORY. Fiction. It doesn' t mean any more the one about Luke using the force to blow up the death star......

Get estimates.

(May 5, 2022 at 6:42 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Assault in progress, by god, you fall to your knees and pray...to god.  That's the definition of debasement, the literal definition.  Let me ask you this.  Let's say you see a standard run of the mill assault.  God isn't immediately obvious..but could you risk stopping that assault...if it were somehow part of gods plan?  Do you know which assaults are a a part of this plan, if..indeed..they aren't all a part of it's plan?  Self defense?  Maybe your assault, also part of it's plan?

I don't need to know which assaults are part of God's plan, firstly nothing is outside his knowledge or power, secondly he created us to right the wrongs in this world. Because God does not promise to fix everything immediately and clean up after the devil or restrain him at every hour some of that responsibility falls on our shoulders. 


Again, there's no need for trust.  Assault in progress.  Whatever it is you think god has planned, that you trust, this is simply what god is doing.  

And as far as I can tell I'm allowed to defend myself from an attacker so I know that God wouldn't punish me for doing something that is permissible to do. That was my ultimate point in bringing up the story about how Jacob got the name Israel. God took on a human form and assaulted Jacob to see how he would respond, and Jacob passed the test. So again, if someone is attacking me, even if they are a physical manifestation of YHWH or Jesus I would still be totally and Biblically justified in defending myself. I don't need to wait for some divine revelation that this is one of the scenarios in which I am allowed to defend myself.

Quote:As it is written, "but know this, that if the master had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into."

I just met you on the internet so I don't know why you would trust a stranger with your back but the eternal reward of paradise is for those who remain loyal to God's commandments.

In Romans 13 these commandments are, Thou shalt not commit adultery, theft, murder, or covet that which does not belong to you and love others as you would want to be loved.

Magic book doesn't mean a thing to me, and quoting from it is unlikely to cast a spell.  I cannot be bought.  I don't do bad things for money, or any price.  Imagine a god that can't understand this, and forms it's entire cult around a single transaction.  Imagine some rando on the internet, a human being, who is similarly unaware?

Here we are.  At least now we're flirting with the problem of evil.  The problem being that you have decided to be evil..and you blame it on your god, and explain it away by some giant lollipop you hope to get a lick of.  I think this is all completely disgusting.  That's why I don't worship your bloodgod.  Has nothing to do with me not believing in gods.  I wouldn't join the club if it were a real god.  I don't need to invent imaginary assholes, there are plenty here in the real world, I could join their little clubs..and they'd also be willing to pay me - but I don't.  Amusingly, a lot of guys with my background went into forward observation work for private contractors.  No trigger pulling, just watching.  They'll pay for your eyes and ears, and especially your mouth, and saddle you with complicity.  Sound familiar?

I'm familiar with wanting something so much that it tests my character.  Are you?  Do you think you're passing that test holding the beliefs you've espoused here?  Or, if you prefer, does it never occur to you, as a believer in a good god..to suggest that story isn't entirely on the up and up?  That the god you believe in would never do that, or insist you be complicit, or even that you remain silent?  That its not an instruction manual from the divine about how to lay back and take it?

I make a reference to the commandments of the New Testament and instead of dealing with the idea of weather or not these commandments are good or bad virtues to live by you chose to respond with, "Magic book doesn't mean a thing to me." Okay then why are you still talking about the magic book of Job? 
I haven't made the choice to be evil, I have made the choice to trust my creator even when I don't understand why he does what he does. My reason for this is simple, he created me not the other way round. My job here on earth is to make moral choices, not moral accusations. Simply put, while we are here on Earth there is a lot that goes on which is outside of our understanding or control, but it isn't our job to necessarily understand everything. It is our job to live out our morals even when it is difficult. Going by the commandments of the New Testament, I'm not sure how the world wouldn't be a better place if less people had sex outside marriage, committed less murder and if less people chose to covet and steal. I'm also not sure how loving others the same way you want others to love you would make the world a worse place. 

Job, for the most part, kept his faith where 99% of people wouldn't. The story of Job, at least for me, inspires me to be patient with the problems that life presents me because I can assure you that despite all the bad fortune that has fallen upon me in the past I was likely not even experiencing 1/10 of what Job already endured. Again, the conclusion of Job is that it is our duty as believers to be patient and not allow suffering to corrupt our view of God. You say you are willing to endure anything for your moral convictions, correct? Well Job's was that his creator is good, and he did endure much undeserved heartache in order to maintain this position.

So I ask you, is it better to do the right thing and receive a just reward? Or continue to do right in the face of unjust suffering? As it is written, "But even if you suffer for righteousness sake, you are blessed."

Also my appeal to heaven is important, how much can you lament the suffering that takes place here on a perishing Earth if it produces far greater fruit in the eternal realm? I am content to suffer through this existence if it means that I can somehow bring glory to my God. I don't see how a story about patient endurance under the harshest of circumstances would inspire a person to do more evil.

Interestingly, of all the books of the Bible, it was the Book of Job that mostly contributed to me eventually becoming an atheist.

Based on his/her/it's posts, I think @h311inac311 is a POE having a bit of fun with us.

I'm not falling for it any more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

(May 5, 2022 at 8:13 am)h311inac311 Wrote: unjust suffering

I always thought it was funny that in order to torment Job, Satan takes his house, his kids, and his cattle -- but leaves his wife.

Some marriages are that way, I guess.

(May 5, 2022 at 8:13 am)h311inac311 Wrote: I make a reference to the commandments of the New Testament and instead of dealing with the idea of weather or not these commandments are good or bad virtues to live by you chose to respond with, "Magic book doesn't mean a thing to me." Okay then why are you still talking about the magic book of Job? 

Is that not what you wanted to do, in your thread.....?

Quote:I haven't made the choice to be evil, I have made the choice to trust my creator even when I don't understand why he does what he does. My reason for this is simple, he created me not the other way round. My job here on earth is to make moral choices, not moral accusations. Simply put, while we are here on Earth there is a lot that goes on which is outside of our understanding or control, but it isn't our job to necessarily understand everything. It is our job to live out our morals even when it is difficult. Going by the commandments of the New Testament, I'm not sure how the world wouldn't be a better place if less people had sex outside marriage, committed less murder and if less people chose to covet and steal. I'm also not sure how loving others the same way you want others to love you would make the world a worse place. 

Apparently, sometimes, trusting whatever made you amounts to being complicit in evil.  I mean shit, he made you, not the other way around. Does this also apply to earthly fathers harming their earthly children?

Quote:Job, for the most part, kept his faith where 99% of people wouldn't. The story of Job, at least for me, inspires me to be patient with the problems that life presents me because I can assure you that despite all the bad fortune that has fallen upon me in the past I was likely not even experiencing 1/10 of what Job already endured. Again, the conclusion of Job is that it is our duty as believers to be patient and not allow suffering to corrupt our view of God. You say you are willing to endure anything for your moral convictions, correct? Well Job's was that his creator is good, and he did endure much undeserved heartache in order to maintain this position.

So I ask you, is it better to do the right thing and receive a just reward? Or continue to do right in the face of unjust suffering? As it is written, "But even if you suffer for righteousness sake, you are blessed."

Was god being unjust?  This is the being you trust...again?  It seems like we don't disagree at all.

Quote:Also my appeal to heaven is important, how much can you lament the suffering that takes place here on a perishing Earth if it produces far greater fruit in the eternal realm? I am content to suffer through this existence if it means that I can somehow bring glory to my God. I don't see how a story about patient endurance under the harshest of circumstances would inspire a person to do more evil.

Important to you - because you can be bought for that price.  You know how you pass up all sorts of fruit in the produce aisle?  Bruised bananas and the like?  This is exactly how I see the beliefs you've espoused in thread. You could fill an entire warehouse full of rotten fruit but I still won't be interested in even the one piece.