As I go through the process of continually reexamining by beliefs (largely now former beliefs), I remain committed to being open minded and considering all sides of any issue.  Honestly, that what has led to my deconversion - considering sources and facts which were hidden/forbidden/shouted down in my world for decades.  To that end, I find a lot on the atheist/agnostic/none position which I find very intellectually satisfying and honest.  Everyone has their bias, so no one is truly down the middle, but in particular I enjoy reading Shermer, Ehrman, Harris, etc - all the ones you might expect.

So my question is - does anyone have suggetions on where to look on the theist side for something honest?  I say that because the sources I am pointed toward by theists tend to feel like sales jobs treading over well-worn arguments (Kalaam, Pascal, gaps, etc) rather than true explorations.  I'm getting suggested folks like WL Craig, Habermas, Strobel, Licona - and I just feel like they are all starting with their desired answer and backfilling.  Are there others that might provide any satisfying thoughts?

(May 25, 2022 at 11:19 am)TheJefe817 Wrote: As I go through the process of continually reexamining by beliefs (largely now former beliefs), I remain committed to being open minded and considering all sides of any issue.  Honestly, that what has led to my deconversion - considering sources and facts which were hidden/forbidden/shouted down in my world for decades.  To that end, I find a lot on the atheist/agnostic/none position which I find very intellectually satisfying and honest.  Everyone has their bias, so no one is truly down the middle, but in particular I enjoy reading Shermer, Ehrman, Harris, etc - all the ones you might expect.

So my question is - does anyone have suggetions on where to look on the theist side for something honest?  I say that because the sources I am pointed toward by theists tend to feel like sales jobs treading over well-worn arguments (Kalaam, Pascal, gaps, etc) rather than true explorations.  I'm getting suggested folks like WL Craig, Habermas, Strobel, Licona - and I just feel like they are all starting with their desired answer and backfilling.  Are there others that might provide any satisfying thoughts?

I don't know about individuals, but some that you mention have produced stuff worth reading in addition to the dishonest crap they sell to their followers.

In particular, I can recommend:

The Blackwell Companion To Natural Theology (Craig, Moreland, ed.)

and

Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview (Craig, Moreland, et al.)

If I may...have you considered the texts of the Church Fathers, such as Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, and early mystics, like the author of Cloud of Unknowing? The mystic do not do apologetics in the same way as the Scholastics. IMHO they are guideposts to experience more than exposition, which is just another human strategy for knowing...through image and symbol. That includes Swedenborg, Blake, Bohem, among others. You also have historic sermons like John Edward's sinner before an angry God for the hard core Reformed.

For modern stuff, you might try David Benteley Hart for the Orthodox perspective. Online StrangeNotions.com has lots of approachable articles and for more academic philosophical reading I regularly visit maverickphilosopher.

Ultimately, it depends on your intent. If you truly want to understand various Christian perpectives then you will gain much from the above. If your goal is to justify your deconversion, then I wish you luck. I was an atheist until I started to comprehend what I was blithly dismissing. YMMV

You can have credible apologists or you can have honest apologists. Don’t ever count on have both at once.

Boru

J.P. Moreland believes that sperm cells have immortal souls:

https://www.closertotruth.com/series/the-soul-immortal

If it needs apologetics, then it's fundamentally flawed.

(May 25, 2022 at 6:15 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: If it needs apologetics, then it's fundamentally flawed.

That's easy for you to say, but can you defend it?

(May 25, 2022 at 1:27 pm)Jehanne Wrote: J.P. Moreland believes that sperm cells have immortal souls:

https://www.closertotruth.com/series/the-soul-immortal

Interesting - ovum don't, I assume which is why it's men who have the say-so with regard to reproduction rights.

(May 25, 2022 at 6:36 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(May 25, 2022 at 6:15 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: If it needs apologetics, then it's fundamentally flawed.

That's easy for you to say, but can you defend it?

Yes.

I have the high ground and I'm dug in pretty firmly.

(May 25, 2022 at 8:16 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote:

(May 25, 2022 at 6:36 pm)Angrboda Wrote: That's easy for you to say, but can you defend it?

Yes.

I have the high ground and I'm dug in pretty firmly.

Sorry, you were just outflanked by a dictionary.