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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 8, 2022 at 6:25 pm
(This post was last modified: July 8, 2022 at 6:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
lol, the internet scrubbed it. I posted a video of How do I know? The bible tells me so!
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 8, 2022 at 10:38 pm
(July 7, 2022 at 11:24 pm)TheJefe817 Wrote: I know I'm following up on my own topic here, but I'm hoping others will opine and make sure I'm being honest and fair.
I recently picked up "The Testimony of the Evangelists" by Simon Greenleaf, as it was recommended as a great classic work worthy of my attention. I started reading, but almost immediately set it aside as not worth my time. The reason: the first chapter, just a few paragraphs in says the following (don't worry, this appears to be public domain):
"The proof that God has revealed himself to man by special and express communications, and that Christianity constitutes that revelation, is no part of these inquiries. This has already been shown, in the most satisfactory manner by others, who have written expressly upon this subject. Referring therefore to their writings for the arguments and proofs, the fact will here be assumed as true."
Why would I read one sentence further than that? Basically he seems to be saying that other people have written things showing that Christianity is true, so we'll assume it's true. So he will now continue the book and show that it's true. Am I missing something here? Why bother to write the book if you're stating in chapter one that what you're going to prove is true has been proven true, which will be accepted by default as evidence of its truth?
This is my continuing frustration. I'm not frustrated with the lack of convincing arguments, as I'm not optimistic that any exist. I'm frustrated that the recommendations of great thought and evidence being brought to me are consistently so blatantly dishonest and/or circular.
Wow, you really read a lot more meaning into that passage than I did. I just took it to be an elaborate way of saying that rehashing those demonstrations are beyond the scope of his book, which to me, isn't all that different from starting some demstration with a given that is widely accepted by the audience. Maybe, since you do not share his given, maybe you are not his audience.
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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 8, 2022 at 10:53 pm
(July 8, 2022 at 10:38 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Wow, you really read a lot more meaning into that passage than I did. I just took it to be an elaborate way of saying that rehashing those demonstrations are beyond the scope of his book, which to me, isn't all that different from starting some demstration with a given that is widely accepted by the audience. Maybe, since you do not share his given, maybe you are not his audience.
Could be. I would say the passage suggests that the given is the truth of Christianity via revelation, and if that is the case it is certainly true that I do not share the given. It seems rather broad to be a given, actually, but then, as you say, I may not then be the audience. The question then would be who the audience would be - those who already believe? That's not me being rhetorical or intentionally rude, I'm just thinking about it.
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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 8, 2022 at 11:17 pm
You are not being rude, just giving an outsider's perspective on a curious subculure.
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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 9, 2022 at 3:40 pm
(July 8, 2022 at 11:17 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: You are not being rude, just giving an outsider's perspective on a curious subculure.
Now that you are a Donator, we have to treat you with respect.
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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 10, 2022 at 2:40 pm
(July 9, 2022 at 3:40 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (July 8, 2022 at 11:17 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: You are not being rude, just giving an outsider's perspective on a curious subculure.
Now that you are a Donator, we have to treat you with respect.
No, we only have to treat people with respect when they act in a manner which deserves respect.
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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 10, 2022 at 2:50 pm
There are a lot of people with purple names who aren't donating to keeping the forum up and running. Many did at one time but don't any more.
And...respect from me can't be purchased.
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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 12, 2022 at 5:22 pm
(June 16, 2022 at 8:07 pm)h311inac311 Wrote: I'm currently reading Frank Turek's infamous, "I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist" where he posits the simple idea that yes Christianity does require some faith, but according to his balance the committed atheist requires more.
He also claims "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." for Christ's resurrection.
So far I find it worth my time to read.
His posit fails on multiple levels.
How much faith does it take to be unconvinced that a god or gods exist?
I am also unconvinced that: alien abductions, Chupacabra, ghosts, Ginn, telekinesis, dowsing, etc, etc, exist. Are all those also faith based positions?
Quote:He also claims "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." for Christ's resurrection.
Yeah...
Not so much.
Back on my post #25, I mentioned I had a shelf full of apologetics books. One of them is "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist".
Turek's so called "proof" for Jesus' resurrection, was kind of laughable. It has been quite a while since I read it, so I can't remember all the problems with it, but it was pretty poor.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 12, 2022 at 8:04 pm
(July 12, 2022 at 5:22 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Back on my post #25, I mentioned I had a shelf full of apologetics books. One of them is "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist".
Since when does "suspending judgment" require faith?
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RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
July 12, 2022 at 11:52 pm
(July 12, 2022 at 8:04 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (July 12, 2022 at 5:22 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Back on my post #25, I mentioned I had a shelf full of apologetics books. One of them is "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist".
Since when does "suspending judgment" require faith?
Indeed. I promote the connotation of "faith" that is more akin to trust than belief. For example, trust is more closely aligned with the will. Belief is more closely aligned with thought. At the same time I know there are Christians, such as Kierkegaard, who consider the irrational acceptance of some first principles as an inescapable part of the human condition. Hence the assertion of these types of Christians is that being an atheist requires "faith" in different first principles... first principles that do not entail theism, but must be accepted on "faith" nonetheless. My guess, not having read the book would be, the Christian writer finds the first princples of an atheistic philosophy to be lacking, a position the existentialist part of me finds agreeable.
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