(January 27, 2020 at 11:43 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(January 27, 2020 at 10:36 am)Klorophyll Wrote: Some Muslim women are also compelled not to wear the hijab. You can always find a group of people compelled to do just about anything.

"Symbol of oppression" is a purely subjective sentence you can keep repeating all day long. Similarly one can simply declare "miniskirts reflect moral decadence" which is subjective too. It's just your word against mine.

I would be perfectly happy if there was NO compulsion in how people dress. And I agree - telling women that they cannot wear the hijab is every bit as oppressive as forcing them to wear it.

Boru

-     No civilized notion does that either. This is also islamist propaganda.
Yer Khadaffi or the Soviets may have done it. The Peoples Republic of China may be doing it. Countries similar to these may have done it or may be doing it. But that’s all.
 
In the civilized world the only issue is the issue of laicity. A girl wan’t to go to a regular school and they may have told her that she can’t do it just like a Christian girl cannot come to class while openly showing the cross on her chest.
 
In the past, in some countries, the headscarf was banned in Universities too or couldn’t enter the university exam wearing a headscarf because of the principle of laicity.
That’s a policy that used to be exaggerated. An 18 year old girl can decide about what she wants to believe in or doesn’t want to believe in and can make her own decisions about almost everything. So yes, this was an exaggerated type of public policy (Used to be).
 
But still: In the civilized world, nobody ever forced anyone not to wear the hijab. This is a lie or an exaggeration at best.

(January 27, 2020 at 5:41 pm)WinterHold Wrote:

(January 27, 2020 at 9:45 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It's rather difficult for oppressed women in an insanely patriarchal society to speak out about their oppression.  That's kind of definitional.

Boru

This ^.

One way to justify the forcing of oppressive laws on a group of people, is claiming that "a majority chose the oppressive law", knowing that all other voices are suppressed and muffled.

-       That’s an outdated way of ruling. But it is still the classical way of ruling in an undemocratic manner. So I’ll always be expecting some people or some groups of people to be trying to apply this approach both on myself and on everybody else.

(January 27, 2020 at 11:23 pm)EgoDeath Wrote:

(January 27, 2020 at 3:53 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: All I understand, is that there are some insecure men who want women to be not-free to cover their own bodies.
You seem like you can't handle rejection from women.

Actually, you'll find that the vast majority of rational adults simply believe that women, just like men, should be free to wear, or not wear, almost anything they want.

The only problem anyone finds with the hijab is that it is a symbol of the oppression of women within the Muslim world. That some women have been brainwashed to think that the hijab is a good thing means very little, and is akin to a Christian child being scared of swearing, or eating an extra cookie, lest they end up burning in hell for their ungodly transgression. In fact, no rational adults seem to think there's any good reason for a woman to cover her hair. Covering breasts and the rear end is one thing... but hair? Who the fuck actually thinks that? Oh, it's only religious bigots. Imagine that.

Even still, if a woman is going to insist that much that she wants, herself, to wear a hijab, then so be it. I simply think there should be more education so women who insist on wearing a hijab know exactly what it is that they're wearing and why.

There are many theories on this. My theory is that in a time when there was no sunscreen, no regular cold shower and of course no air-conditioned jeeps to ride through the desert, the hijab, being of black color was simply the ideal dress for a very hot and arid country. Until the 19th century most European farmer women were also wearing dresses covering their heads and their entire bodies. In fact, the more you go north in the Muslim world also, the less Hijab they are wearing.
 
Ancient people did not have the choice of being stupid. Even on religious issue. Just like a hard working European peasant woman had to protect her body from the sun, the wind, insects etc, Arab women who mostly worked in the area of stock farming in the Arabian Peninsula had to protect themselves from the sun. Otherwise they would be dehydrated and they would die.
 
Now taking this and saying “This is our tradition, This is the rule of God…” etc… that’s a whole different issue (and it’s not true).

(September 19, 2022 at 2:51 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(January 27, 2020 at 11:23 pm)EgoDeath Wrote: Actually, you'll find that the vast majority of rational adults simply believe that women, just like men, should be free to wear, or not wear, almost anything they want.

The only problem anyone finds with the hijab is that it is a symbol of the oppression of women within the Muslim world. That some women have been brainwashed to think that the hijab is a good thing means very little, and is akin to a Christian child being scared of swearing, or eating an extra cookie, lest they end up burning in hell for their ungodly transgression. In fact, no rational adults seem to think there's any good reason for a woman to cover her hair. Covering breasts and the rear end is one thing... but hair? Who the fuck actually thinks that? Oh, it's only religious bigots. Imagine that.

Even still, if a woman is going to insist that much that she wants, herself, to wear a hijab, then so be it. I simply think there should be more education so women who insist on wearing a hijab know exactly what it is that they're wearing and why.

There are many theories on this. My theory is that in a time when there was no sunscreen, no regular cold shower and of course no air-conditioned jeeps to ride through the desert, the hijab, being of black color was simply the ideal dress for a very hot and arid country. Until the 19th century most European farmer women were also wearing dresses covering their heads and their entire bodies. In fact, the more you go north in the Muslim world also, the less Hijab they are wearing.
 
Ancient people did not have the choice of being stupid. Even on religious issue. Just like a hard working European peasant woman had to protect her body from the sun, the wind, insects etc, Arab women who mostly worked in the area of stock farming in the Arabian Peninsula had to protect themselves from the sun. Otherwise they would be dehydrated and they would die.
 
Now taking this and saying “This is our tradition, This is the rule of God…” etc… that’s a whole different issue (and it’s not true).

Just a note sunscreen is actually an ancient concept

(September 19, 2022 at 11:27 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(September 18, 2022 at 11:42 pm)Eclectic Wrote: In Islamic countries, there are the following problems for women freedom of clothing:
1- In countries like Iran, the government determines the type of clothing for women. Women do not have the right to choose the type of clothes to be in the street.
If they wear other clothes, the police will arrest them and send them to prison or they will be penalized or they will be beaten and killed.

2- Satanic religion, Islam is designed and propagated by Satan in such a way that it creates fear in men that if they accept that it is good to remove the hijab and it is good for wives and  doughters, they will be accused to they are poor-spirited and scoundrel  and will be scandalized. And they are afraid that other Muslim men will start teasing and insulting their daughters, wives and sisters or disrespecting them [!?]

Just want to make sure I understand you correctly, you're agnostic but you believe in Satan?

In Iran people for very bad person say it is satan and for bad act say satanic.
It is not meaning we belive Satan.
For example in computer sience virus is a malware but it is not a biological virus like corona virus.

In Iran, a funny child who is very playful is called a Satan.
And a person who does a lot of criminal activity is also called a Satan.

Satan in these casees is an adjective, not a noun.

Final debate between Ego-Death and Belaqua:
 
Both views are interesting and there are ideas I am agreeing on on both sides. So the debate itself is nice.
 
My addition to this debate could be this:
- There is bigotry in every religion and that’s why people hate religion in the first place.
 
Yet there is a difference between the original message of Jesus who accepted to peacefully die on the cross for what he believed in and the middle-age catholic church who sent hordes of murderers to kill and plunder other people “In the name of God”.
 
It’s simply too easy to manipulate people with religion. It is also too easy to put all the blame on religion. Let’s think about the modern catholic church who murdered native children in Canada until the 1990’s in order to assimilate them. Or on the same church who consciously hid pedophile priests from justice in order to maintain it’s own image in front of the general public.
 
So these are atrocities that exist in every religion.
 
My theory is that the Hijab is not such an atrocity. It’s a misinterpretation. That’s also a different thing.  But one has to be aware of the fact that most of the Islamic world is ruled by monarchs, terrorists (I am talking only about Afghanistan), dictators, populist-“islamist” parties whose interests lie in the constant misinterpretation of the religion itself because it’s in their interest to have an ignorant, bestial, rustic, ignorant, uneducated, dogmatic, unchallenging and unquestioning population who will basically applaud what ever comes out of their mouth.  
 
The Movie by Sacha Baron Cohen is not a simple farce (I know it’s not a farce living where I live).
 
I don’t know If one can say this to agnostic or atheist person while trying to remain politically correct but if you look at the core of many religions, you can find out that most of the ugliness come from human error, not from the book or the message itself. At least that’s my point of view.

(September 19, 2022 at 2:16 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(September 19, 2022 at 11:27 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Just want to make sure I understand you correctly, you're agnostic but you believe in Satan?

(troll)

You call me a troll or Mister Agenda? why?