(December 4, 2011 at 5:11 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: I am agnostic and can understand that, but unless another’s views were imposed on me and I was retaliating to it. I can’t see any merit in being an atheist. Why would I rebel against something which has no impact on me?

Atheism isn't a rebellion. Either you believe in god(s) or you don't. It's a descriptor. Theists have made it into a rebellion because those theists feel threatened by those who don't believe the same thing they do, and that can include other god belief. (And before Rayaan swoops in with his Best Muslim Ever smile, I mean the theists that DO have a problem, not the ones that don't, who obviously don't impose their crap on other people)

Atheism isn't about merit. You're starting to make me think you're a theist in disguise with that statement.

Theism does impact me because the rules and taboos people create in the name of religion work their way into society and sometimes into law. I live in the Bible Belt where I'm confronted with religion every day - I'm not rebelling against them, I just want to be left alone. I don't want my tax money paying for it. I don't want to be told I'm immoral because I don't pray to a being no one's given me evidence for. How the hell is atheism a rebellion again?

(December 4, 2011 at 5:11 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: I know atheists find it annoying. I assure I’m not trying to be annoying, I’ve just never heard an answer which I find viable to not consider it a belief. Do you believe that you don’t believe there is a god, despite not knowing everything?

I don't think I'm understanding what you're asking. I know I don't believe there is a god. My mind could be changed, with evidence. I'm not making a commitment to anything.

(December 4, 2011 at 5:11 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: Interesting, many atheists claim their rationalism compels them to be an atheist.

I'm sure if you asked those people they'd also describe themselves as rationalists or skeptics too.

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(December 4, 2011 at 5:19 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: One of life's lessons: Never use words you cannot pronounce or understand lest you want ridicule and humiliation from your peers.

Hehe. We need an Inigo smiley that holds a sign that says "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

1 - I get annoyed when I'm told I have such a belief for the same reason that others have stated; it's not a belief. Theism is a belief system, a-theism is the response to that system. It really is that simple. I lack the belief. My hobbies also include not collecting stamps.

2 - Personally, I've never heard of an atheist banner. If by that you mean congregating as a group so as to derive some sort of comfort or support from those who share our opinions, fine, although I'd point out that I for one have been an atheist long before I was even aware that boards such as this even existed and I continue to be one whether I log in here or not. I don't go out of my way to convert new recruits to some nebulous atheist cause, but present me with something I can investigate and I'll act on it.

[quote='Ace Otana' pid='212447' dateline='1323033101']

[quote]If you don’t know something to be true yet still consider it to be correct then you must believe it, whether it’s a belief in something or a belief in non-belief is irrelevant. [/quote]

[quote]Belief is belief in non belief? Huh? You crazy?
I have rejected the claim that theists have put forth. I don't believe in this god they speak of. I don't need to justify anything. I have no burden of proof. I've got it easy. Since I'm not claiming anything. A theist claims a god exists, I reject that claim on the basis that it makes no sense and lacks evidence. That's it. Nothing more to it.
[/quote]

If you know that a theist's god does not it exist then a disbelief would have the foundation of knowledge. Otherwise, you reject it based on what? A lack of evidence.

Do you think if a god exists he/she should appear? What would constitute evidence? Is it turtles all the way down?


[quote]To reject a claim, you would require some form of justification which is based on either knowledge or belief. [/quote]
[quote]Not really. If you are interested in my reasons for rejecting theist claims it is because of a lack of evidence. Also how is a lack of belief = a belief?[/quote]

To me it is as, you consider that evidence is lacking implies you know what the evidence is and is able to be retrieved.

So if you admit you know that evidence is lacking, this assumes that all evidence is obtainable/observable. Based on being your own assumption it would be a belief.

If you believe that evidence is lacking, it would be a belief. The resulting conclusion of a lack of belief has the foundation of resulting from what you consider to be true, which is a belief.

[quote]Exactly, so why are you here?[/quote]
[quote]Why not? I like to chat with like minded individuals. Also I love these guys. They're like a family to me.[/quote]

Fair enough. I still don't get it.

Quote:If you know that a theist's god does not it exist then a disbelief would have the foundation of knowledge. Otherwise, you reject it based on what? A lack of evidence.

Do you think if a god exists he/she should appear? What would constitute evidence? Is it turtles all the way down?

I never claimed to 'know' that god or gods don't exist. Feel free to quote me. I said I rejected the claim. I don't need to justify it. This 'god' was claimed by theists, ask them what evidence they have for it and what is to be expected. Not me buddy. I simply don't believe the bullshit they spout. I'm unconvinced of such a being.

Quote:To me it is as, you consider that evidence is lacking implies you know what the evidence is and is able to be retrieved.

Alright I'll be specific, I don't know of any evidence that supports god's existence. So far theists have failed to present anything that could support their assertions. Don't point the finger at me mate just because I don't believe.

Quote:If you believe that evidence is lacking, it would be a belief. The resulting conclusion of a lack of belief has the foundation of resulting from what you consider to be true, which is a belief.

It's not a matter of belief mate, if you know of any evidence, please...share with us.

Quote:Fair enough. I still don't get it.

You won't.

(December 4, 2011 at 5:19 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(December 4, 2011 at 4:28 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: 1. Many atheists get frustrated when their view is stated to be a belief, yet openly admit they do not know a God/god (in any form) does not exist. So why be annoyed when your view is described as a belief?

I imagine its the same reason why many get frustrated with people's misconception that The Big Bang theory is supposed to provide an explanation for the origin of the universe. It does not. The model explains its early evolution. Likewise, theists propagating false ideas that on the subject of gods' existence inclusively and exclusively, and asserting that atheism, the lack of belief, is a belief is not simply inaccurate - this is factually wrong and such an error cannot go uncorrected.

Its not so much that they're wrong that annoys us though. Everyone is wrong at same point or other in their lives. That's life for you. Its the fact that they're overbearingly ignorant of the definition of the word "atheism" yet mindlessly regurgitate the term non-stop as if they already know what its meaning is without taking the time to actually learn it first.

One of life's lessons: Never use words you cannot pronounce or understand lest you want ridicule and humiliation from your peers.

Thanks for the lesson Yoda.


I understand what “Atheism” means so try not to conflate your annoyance with other’s describing your view as a belief to what the word actually means. You can claim your view is not a belief and is factual incorrect. Attempt to link it to the Big Bang Theory, does nothing to prove that it is ‘incorrect’– it’s just a bad use of an analogy. I can say I’m right as 2+2=4, does this sway you? No me neither.

Most atheists think their view holds no belief, theists and some agnostics (such as myself) think it is a belief. Not everyone agrees. Do you think that the subject of a definition can apply the application of the definition as well? Didn’t think “atheism” had highjacked the word “belief”, but it seems to have.

Quote:2. If your view is inactive and the burden of proof is on the theist believer, why congregate under the atheist banner? Is it an attempt to expose theists to a rational perspective? Is it to find solace from the outside theistic world? Well, banners are used to convey ideas or principles and with them rally public opinion or protest. We're not under a banner, although some have tried with the Invisible Pink Unicorn and Flying Spaghetti Monster, but these belong in satire only. We don't identify ourselves with a "lack of belief", we are simply trying to let vulnerable people out there who are going through turmoil, thanks to theists, know that 'You're not alone'. 'There are communities with others out there like you who also don't believe in religious dogma.'

Great, although I’m a little bit suspect of the motives.

Quote:We are trying to make people 'wake-up' and realise that atheism is not dangerous, its no threat and is not to be equated with devil-worshippers who want to destroy everything believers cherish (though ironically many of them actually want this world to be destroyed via Divine Judgement or other, but that's another story). We want to be supportive to all those facing oppressive and difficult times by promoting positive atheism.

Quote:I don’t follow what the purpose of the atheist is. I don’t believe in many things yet take no active involvement in denying these things (bigfoot, santa....). Is it due to the sheer number of people and resulting actions who do believe in a God/god that requires some form of response by atheists?

There is no 'purpose', because my atheism says nothing about me as an individual. Neither does someone else's theism tell you anything about their personality, character, hobbies, interests, likes, dislikes, accomplishments or failures.

Atheism is simply but one position, one response to a single claim - the belief in god or gods as unproven to be true and not sufficiently met their burden of proof.

So why come together under this single response?

Quote:To find out more about me all you have to do is... ask. Same with running any line of enquiry with any other human being I suppose. Naturally I have the right not to discuss some aspects about my personal life, and the person asking should respect my privacy on some sensitive subjects. Anonymity on the Internet is one reason behind its world-wide success.

ummm ok.

I’m here to ask about atheism, although I think it is something that I will never grok. It simply makes no sense to me. I’ve yet to find anywhere which can rationalise their views in a way I accept. I’m not here to find out about your personal life, which may surprise you.

(December 4, 2011 at 6:16 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: I understand what “Atheism” means so try not to conflate your annoyance with other’s describing your view as a belief to what the word actually means. You can claim your view is not a belief and is factual incorrect.

...

You are starting to give me bad vibes... I dealt with a similar arsehole earlier who didn't have a fucking clue what atheism meant

Is that you Lucent?

(December 4, 2011 at 6:24 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: ...

You are starting to give me bad vibes... I dealt with a similar arsehole earlier who didn't have a fucking clue what atheism meant

Is that you Lucent?

That's what I'm thinking....

Apparently the definition of 'Sitnuc' is 'ill mannered'. Thus far I've been prepared to be polite in my replies; however, and while I obviously cannot speak for anyone but myself, if you want us to be annoyed with you, I'm sure we could oblige.

These questions are so similar to the ones we encountered last night and the discussion is very familiar.. hmmm.... were you in Charlotte last night???? LOL

Do you notice that, Summerqueen? Or I guess people are so similar that the dialogue is often the same IRL and on the forums.

(December 4, 2011 at 5:23 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote:

(December 4, 2011 at 5:11 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: I am agnostic and can understand that, but unless another’s views were imposed on me and I was retaliating to it. I can’t see any merit in being an atheist. Why would I rebel against something which has no impact on me?

Quote:Atheism isn't a rebellion. Either you believe in god(s) or you don't. It's a descriptor. Theists have made it into a rebellion because those theists feel threatened by those who don't believe the same thing they do, and that can include other god belief. (And before Rayaan swoops in with his Best Muslim Ever smile, I mean the theists that DO have a problem, not the ones that don't, who obviously don't impose their crap on other people)

Atheism as a passive description is not a rebellion, some atheists are rebellious towards anyone who fails to agree with their perspective, devoutly so. Would you think the new atheist movement are guided by rebelliousness or just marking for book sales? I think a bit of both. Either way it comes across as angst ridden teens trying to get rid of their over-protective parents.

Quote:Atheism isn't about merit. You're starting to make me think you're a theist in disguise with that statement.

You’re welcome to think what you want, if you want to peg me for a liar I will do the same to you and place you exactly where I think you are, not where you claim to be.

That’s such a typical response. Fit in here, you must.

Quote:Theism does impact me because the rules and taboos people create in the name of religion work their way into society and sometimes into law. I live in the Bible Belt where I'm confronted with religion every day - I'm not rebelling against them, I just want to be left alone. I don't want my tax money paying for it. I don't want to be told I'm immoral because I don't pray to a being no one's given me evidence for. How the hell is atheism a rebellion again?

If you can remove elements of how religion has shaped society and impacted how your tax has been spent good luck to you.

(December 4, 2011 at 5:11 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: I know atheists find it annoying. I assure I’m not trying to be annoying, I’ve just never heard an answer which I find viable to not consider it a belief. Do you believe that you don’t believe there is a god, despite not knowing everything?

Quote:I don't think I'm understanding what you're asking. I know I don't believe there is a god. My mind could be changed, with evidence. I'm not making a commitment to anything.

Knowing what you believe holds no weight at all. If you know that there is no god, then you know it. If you disbelieve in something I’m hoping you have a rationale for it. If so, what is it? A lack of evidence. How did you come to the conclusion of deciding what evidence is required, and whether this evidence is obtainable?

(December 4, 2011 at 5:11 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: Interesting, many atheists claim their rationalism compels them to be an atheist.

Quote:I'm sure if you asked those people they'd also describe themselves as rationalists or skeptics too.

Yes I have, which is why I said it. I’m sure if you read what I wrote you wouldn’t have to assume anything.

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(December 4, 2011 at 5:19 pm)Welsh cake Wrote: One of life's lessons: Never use words you cannot pronounce or understand lest you want ridicule and humiliation from your peers.

Hehe. We need an Inigo smiley that holds a sign that says "I do not think that word means what you think it means."

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(December 4, 2011 at 6:24 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:

(December 4, 2011 at 6:16 pm)Sitnuc Wrote: I understand what “Atheism” means so try not to conflate your annoyance with other’s describing your view as a belief to what the word actually means. You can claim your view is not a belief and is factual incorrect.

...

You are starting to give me bad vibes... I dealt with a similar arsehole earlier who didn't have a fucking clue what atheism meant

Is that you Lucent?

If you want me to be.

I think you're a arsehole as well. Got any other words of wisdom about internet communication? or any other analogies, maybe you could try and use the truth of evolution as proof of what you say?

You try to come across as some sort of resident King Solomon, but you have fuck all to say.