(November 29, 2022 at 10:45 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:

(November 29, 2022 at 10:37 pm)Jehanne Wrote: No, it's serious work on the part of Dr. Penrose:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.100...013-9763-z

Oh, I'm a fan of Penrose.  "The Road to Reality" is him definitely not talking down to you.  But sometimes he's given to woo.   Conformal Cyclic Cosmology is one example, for the reason I stated above.  He also thinks consciousness has to do with quantum pure states that are somehow maintained within warm sloppy cellular cytoplasm when the likes of Google can barely make their supercooled quantum computers factor the number 21.   And he holds to an objective wavefunction collapse theory that should have yielded confirmation by now (we've put pieces of dust with millions of atoms into superposition).

Science is a long way from the "God did It" world of Kalam; who's to say what the state of physics will be a century or millennium from now?

(November 29, 2022 at 10:30 am)Nay_Sayer Wrote: If FSM is the uncaused cause, as Pastafarians assert, then Xis existence has no reason.  Xis existence is simply a brute fact. 

And if FSM existence has no basis in reason, then there is also no reason to assert Xhe is the solitary uncaused cause.  Xhe may very well be one of many uncaused causes.

I trust you'll be abandoning Taoism now.

When a great man makes a mistake, he realizes it.
Having realized it, he admits it.
Having admitted it, he corrects it.
He considers those who point out his faults as his most benevolent teachers.
He thinks of his enemy as the shadow that he himself casts

(November 29, 2022 at 11:08 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:

(November 29, 2022 at 10:30 am)Nay_Sayer Wrote: If FSM is the uncaused cause, as Pastafarians assert, then Xis existence has no reason.  Xis existence is simply a brute fact. 

And if FSM existence has no basis in reason, then there is also no reason to assert Xhe is the solitary uncaused cause.  Xhe may very well be one of many uncaused causes.

I trust you'll be abandoning Taoism now.

When a great man makes a mistake, he realizes it.
Having realized it, he admits it.
Having admitted it, he corrects it.
He considers those who point out his faults as his most benevolent teachers.
He thinks of his enemy as the shadow that he himself casts

I'll take that as a yes

(November 29, 2022 at 7:56 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:

(November 29, 2022 at 10:54 am)Jehanne Wrote: Eternal models of cosmology exist.  The Nobel laureate, Professor Sir Roger Penrose, has developed one:

Wikipedia -- Conformal cyclic cosmology

By the principle of parsimony, the Kalam argument is superfluous.

And as far as we know protons do not decay.

Not really

We havent seen one decay, yet. However theory says that their half-life is in the 10^31y ballpark
Lets just wait a bit...like 10^20y years.

(November 30, 2022 at 5:04 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(November 29, 2022 at 7:56 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: And as far as we know protons do not decay.

Not really

We havent seen one decay, yet. However theory says that their half-life is in the 10^31y ballpark
Lets just wait a bit...like 10^20y years.

The Minimal Supersymmetric Standard Model has the most unstable of the possible proton decay chains that hasn't been ruled out by experiment, on the order of 10³⁴ years.  But it also has a slew of particles that should have been seen at the LHC already.

(November 30, 2022 at 6:23 am)LinuxGal Wrote:

(November 30, 2022 at 5:04 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Not really

We havent seen one decay, yet. However theory says that their half-life is in the 10^31y ballpark
Lets just wait a bit...like 10^20y years.

The Minimal Supersymmetric Standard Model has the most unstable of the possible proton decay chains that hasn't been ruled out by experiment, on the order of 10³⁴ years.  But it also has a slew of particles that should have been seen at the LHC already.

If the Universe is destined to expand forever, there is plenty of time for proton decay to occur.

(November 30, 2022 at 7:59 am)Jehanne Wrote:

(November 30, 2022 at 6:23 am)LinuxGal Wrote: The Minimal Supersymmetric Standard Model has the most unstable of the possible proton decay chains that hasn't been ruled out by experiment, on the order of 10³⁴ years.  But it also has a slew of particles that should have been seen at the LHC already.

If the Universe is destined to expand forever, there is plenty of time for proton decay to occur.

Stuff is sliding over our observable horizon all the time.  Eventually every proton will be alone in it's own local universe.  Then it if decays into a couple of cosmic ray photons, big deal.

(November 30, 2022 at 9:06 am)LinuxGal Wrote:

(November 30, 2022 at 7:59 am)Jehanne Wrote: If the Universe is destined to expand forever, there is plenty of time for proton decay to occur.

Stuff is sliding over our observable horizon all the time.  Eventually every proton will be alone in it's own local universe.  Then it if decays into a couple of cosmic ray photons, big deal.

All this would mean is that Penrose's model is difficult, if not impossible, to test let alone falsify. In any case, the mathematics "is beautiful" unlike the syllogistic cludgery of the Kalam. We are, of course, free to suspend judgment.

(November 30, 2022 at 9:06 am)LinuxGal Wrote:

(November 30, 2022 at 7:59 am)Jehanne Wrote: If the Universe is destined to expand forever, there is plenty of time for proton decay to occur.

Stuff is sliding over our observable horizon all the time.  Eventually every proton will be alone in it's own local universe.  Then it if decays into a couple of cosmic ray photons, big deal.

Thank you for ruining my day.

(November 30, 2022 at 12:37 pm)Deesse23 Wrote:

(November 30, 2022 at 9:06 am)LinuxGal Wrote: Stuff is sliding over our observable horizon all the time.  Eventually every proton will be alone in it's own local universe.  Then it if decays into a couple of cosmic ray photons, big deal.

Thank you for ruining my day.

In about 500 Myr, life on our World will begin to end due to the brightening of our star, the Sun. The Earth will slowly slide out of the hability zone.