(June 12, 2023 at 4:44 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

R-Farmer Wrote:This makes Sin and Satan the rulers of this world.

Well, if Satan rules the world then god is very feeble and is not worth anyone's time.

And if that was always apart of the plan?

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(June 12, 2023 at 5:00 pm)h4ym4n Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 4:31 pm)R-Farmer Wrote: This world is Satan's kingdom. Most people take their quo's of hell from roman and or greek mythology where it is the domain of the under world god. When in fact this world is the domain of satan. Hell is where/How God sets out to destroy the things of this world. Not trying to be threatening or doom saying.. Just want you to have the information so you can make a well informed decision.

Does satan have magical powers to influence my beliefs and actions?

One man's magic, and another's technology. Does satan have supernatural ability? In the book of Job He is recorded having the ability to manipulate the elements (He used hurricane force winds to blow down Job's house. He has influence over bandits and even nations, he also has the ability to inflict disease and pestilence.

Quote:If so, why is anyone responsible to what gods rules say?

Going back to the whole 'Might makes Right' discussion At some point in the future Per the book of revelation. God/Jesus will return over throwing satan and his followers, take control of the earth and making apart of God's immediate kingdom once again. When this happens Jesus is set to resurrect the dead and judge the sins of the world. Rewarding the faithful and sending the unfaithful to Hell. If you are ok with this set up then you don't have to change anything.

Quote: How am I responsible, as a human, for what the almost all powerful, compared to human, satan is easily able to magically make me believe or do?

Romans 7 is tells us we will never be free from sin. That our bodies are slaves to sin. But our minds and hearts are free to resist sin. If we can separate our heart's desire to be free from sin even if our body is a slave to sin we can be redeemed.

(June 12, 2023 at 5:15 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

R-Farmer Wrote:The Bible doesn't claim omnipotence for God either, only that he is very powerful. Powerful enough to create the universe (maybe not that big a flex since it's conceivable that we've already created universes by accident in cyclotrons) and flood the world; that doesn't necessarily mean that he could rearrange the galaxies to spell out 'See, I told you I was ' in English on a whim. Heck, creating the universe and us took him six days, he didn't create everything with a snap of his metaphorical fingers.

That just proves that god (of the Bible) is an archaic idea created by primitive people who knew very little about the world and let alone the universe.

I disagree. just look at your default presupposition on who and what God is supposed to be.. This idea of perfection can also be found in super early church writings. Where do you think you got it from? What the Bible says is this idea of man's perfection is wrong. the idea of God having to be our perfect version of God is wrong. Rather because God is the master creator He becomes the standard bearer of what perfection is. So even if he retains a trait that 'we' see as being flawed, it is our judgement that is flawed, and what ever perceived attribute we have identified is in fact apart of God's perfection.

God does not have to yield to our standard of perfection inorder to be God.

Quote: People in the ancient past thought that all species of animals could fit on one boat because they knew only a handful of animal species. Similar with the universe - they didn't know about galaxies, and they thought that world was flat. Today we know that the universe is too big for anyone to create it and manipulate it and that we hold no special place in it.

And if you took say, eggs and baby animals instead of full grown adults? If eggs were taken that would represent all avian reptiles and amphibians which would take up a fraction of the space and eliminate the need to feed them. (that's 3/4s of every class of creature on the planet.) Then if you took baby mammals all you would need is a large source of milk and that would also take up a fraction of the space and reduce the needs for most of the food.

That said the story of the ark is not a logistical tale of how one man saved the world from an angry God, but how God used and helped one man save the world from a level of sin it had never seen before or have seen since.

(June 13, 2023 at 12:00 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 1:13 pm)R-Farmer Wrote: Sorry, to many spinning plates. I get those two them backwards sometime.. yes I mean relative morality.

Well, as I said, I don't agree with you there.  You and your god might both be moral relativists, but I am not.  You might be interested in gods unchanging ultimate standards™ - but I prefer objective ones.

fair enough.

Not to judge you or start a political debate. but would you follow this country's morality if it opened up sexual relationship for Minor Attracted Persons?

(June 12, 2023 at 6:12 pm)h4ym4n Wrote: So what you are saying Yahweh was never by itself

Not till the cross. Which is why Jesus cries out ' My God why have you forsaken me' Or Why have you turn your back on/left me?

Quote: Does the son spirit have independent thoughts?

I'm trying to think of one example, but I can't come up with one where Jesus wanted to do X and the Spirit Y.

Quote:How about the spirit?

Does the Father and Jesus have independent thoughts? yes. The night before Jesus was to be captured tortured and nailed to the cross he went to the garden at gethsemane and prayed to God so hard his sweat turned to blood, asking that if God would find another way than the cross.  

Quote: Can either say no to Yahweh ?

Apparently Jesus could have in the garden, or again when He was tempted by satan. (satan offered to make Christ ruler of this world without having to go to the cross if Christ would just kneel to satan.

(June 13, 2023 at 12:59 am)Tomato Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 10:07 am)R-Farmer Wrote: Yes indeedie..

But this works both ways.. From where I stand the fiction is God does not exist. So then that begs the question who is the one who determines what is and is not fiction?

We can adequately differentiate fiction, mythology, from reality based on the empirical evidence. God being as fictional as leprechauns is just a fact, because there is zero evidence for the existence of either.

ok, cool.

(June 13, 2023 at 8:13 am)R-Farmer Wrote:

(June 13, 2023 at 12:00 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Well, as I said, I don't agree with you there.  You and your god might both be moral relativists, but I am not.  You might be interested in gods unchanging ultimate standards™ - but I prefer objective ones.

fair enough.

Not to judge you or start a political debate. but would you follow this country's morality if it opened up sexual relationship for Minor Attracted Persons?

That's not a political argument, that's just you being a douche repeating some bullshit the reichwing nuts like to say.  I think the better question is why you wouldn't?  That's not something god has a problem with in magic book.  In fact, it specifically tells people to go off raiding for minor sex slaves. It's not like there's anything wrong with that (or anything else) in gods unchanging ultimate moral relativism.

(June 13, 2023 at 8:23 am)R-Farmer Wrote: Apparently Jesus could have in the garden, or again when He was tempted by satan. (satan offered to make Christ ruler of this world without having to go to the cross if Christ would just kneel to satan.

Another fun one.  Who's narrating that tale?

(June 13, 2023 at 7:53 am)R-Farmer Wrote: Going back to the whole 'Might makes Right' discussion At some point in the future Per the book of revelation. God/Jesus will return over throwing satan and his followers, take control of the earth and making apart of God's immediate kingdom once again. When this happens Jesus is set to resurrect the dead and judge the sins of the world. Rewarding the faithful and sending the unfaithful to Hell. If you are ok with this set up then you don't have to change anything.

-and if you're not okay with it, fuck you, it's not like you can do anything about it.

Quote:Romans 7 is tells us we will never be free from sin. That our bodies are slaves to sin. But our minds and hearts are free to resist sin. If we can separate our heart's desire to be free from sin even if our body is a slave to sin we can be redeemed.

Why would that even matter?  You either bend the knee or you don't - it's that simple.  Who cares whether you can "resist sin", whatever the hell sin is, in this amoral power play formulation?

(June 12, 2023 at 1:56 pm)R-Farmer Wrote:

(June 12, 2023 at 1:20 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Please pass this suggestion on to God: Do not create people who are going to turn out damned. Just skip those. Unless what you're saying is that Allah is unable to actualize the saved people without also actualizing the damned people?

Again God does not hand build/create people. He hasn't created anything/anyone since day 6 of creation.

Rather Jesus in mat 13 explains a parable how we are all seeds.. And He plants wheat seeds (sons of righteousness) and His enemy the devil plants tares/weed seeds. on the earth/field. 
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

And again, that was a reply to Winterhold. I understand that you hold a different view.