Halsey did as ordered.

(June 29, 2023 at 2:02 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: Keep in mind the strategic picture at the time of the battle of Samar is the entire imperial Japanese navy only had 68 ocean going surface combatants of all types remaining in its order of battle at the beginning the battle of Leyte gulf, and that fleet had already taken very serious further losses before the Samar engagement itself, including kurita’s own command, and kurita himself had to be fished out of the sea because his original flagship had already been sunk from under his ass.    Kurita understood that by the time his force sighted taffy, what remains of the entire imperial Japanese navy could never exploit any opportunity that might arise from any degree of immediate tactical success in phillipines.

Kurita didn’t really want to fight at Samar because he thought his remaining fleet would likely be completely annihilated in the aftermath if he pressed the attack, while even success in the attack itself could serve no strategic purpose,  So he aimed to put on a show for appearance sake but really focus on withdrawing as soon as it was seemly in order to save his ship to save his men.   But even the degree to which he could make the pretense of engaging in earnest convincing was circumscribed by the fact that his destroyers were nearing bingo fuel, due to unexpected amount of maneuvering and counter marching and then doubling back during the engagements on previous days, and he did want these destroyers make it back as well.

So it is not the tin cans beat off a greatly superior force, rather it is the greatly superior force’s commander had made up his mind to not fight, although some of his subordinate commanders were eager, they obeyed orders.

There's a lot of hindsightium in this analysis, because no American had any idea of the fuel state of the Japanese ships.

The other thing, which also requires the retrospectroscope to understand, is that after the delay in launching Sho-1, there's no way it could have worked, because by that time 6th Army had landed and had the first wave of supplies landed as well (200,000 tons of supplies!) Kurita could have kept on steaming into the now-empty supply ships had he adequate fuel (and I think he did, if he topped up DDs from BBs on return), but he still couldn't stop the invasion itself. It had already landed. But he didn't get there until 25 October, five days after the fact. The horse was already out the barn. This also requires hindsightium because no American knew the Japanese plan.

The tin cans had no idea of this either. Maybe you should call 'em and let 'em know? "Hey guys, cool your heels and let them pass, they're low on fuel and their plan is five days late anyway."

Yeah, hindsightium.

(June 29, 2023 at 9:27 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(June 29, 2023 at 2:02 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: Keep in mind the strategic picture at the time of the battle of Samar is the entire imperial Japanese navy only had 68 ocean going surface combatants of all types remaining in its order of battle at the beginning the battle of Leyte gulf, and that fleet had already taken very serious further losses before the Samar engagement itself, including kurita’s own command, and kurita himself had to be fished out of the sea because his original flagship had already been sunk from under his ass.    Kurita understood that by the time his force sighted taffy, what remains of the entire imperial Japanese navy could never exploit any opportunity that might arise from any degree of immediate tactical success in phillipines.

Kurita didn’t really want to fight at Samar because he thought his remaining fleet would likely be completely annihilated in the aftermath if he pressed the attack, while even success in the attack itself could serve no strategic purpose,  So he aimed to put on a show for appearance sake but really focus on withdrawing as soon as it was seemly in order to save his ship to save his men.   But even the degree to which he could make the pretense of engaging in earnest convincing was circumscribed by the fact that his destroyers were nearing bingo fuel, due to unexpected amount of maneuvering and counter marching and then doubling back during the engagements on previous days, and he did want these destroyers make it back as well.

So it is not the tin cans beat off a greatly superior force, rather it is the greatly superior force’s commander had made up his mind to not fight, although some of his subordinate commanders were eager, they obeyed orders.

There's a lot of hindsightium in this analysis, because no American had any idea of the fuel state of the Japanese ships.

The other thing, which also requires the retrospectroscope to understand, is that after the delay in launching Sho-1, there's no way it could have worked, because by that time 6th Army had landed and had the first wave of supplies landed as well (200,000 tons of supplies!) Kurita could have kept on steaming into the now-empty supply ships had he adequate fuel (and I think he did, if he topped up DDs from BBs on return), but he still couldn't stop the invasion itself. It had already landed. But he didn't get there until 25 October, five days after the fact. The horse was already out the barn. This also requires hindsightium because no American knew the Japanese plan.

The tin cans had no idea of this either.  Maybe you should call 'em and let 'em know? "Hey guys, cool your heels and let them pass, they're low on fuel and their plan is five days late anyway."

Yeah, hindsightium.

Hindsightium is much more precious than hooplaium, at least if one has a higher regard for the truth then for the rousing hoopla.  That’s why those who care for the truth adjust spectacular wartime claims of kills with what the actual enemy losses were after the enemy’s archives have become accessible.

There were many other instances on both sides where vastly outmatched forces fought just as courageously, for stakes just as high, and having had no reason to believe the enemy would back off.     What initially set this apart was the perception that their courage was crowned was almost unbelievable success.    Yet hindsightium showed the success was not truly the result of their courage.    It was the natural course of the events given kurita’s views and situation of his fleet.

(June 29, 2023 at 7:11 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Halsey did as ordered.

No he didn’t.   He ordered this on his own initiative.   Nimitz certainly didn’t order him to do this, hence the “…..world wonders” query, which Halsey interpreted to be a personal rebuke.   This caused the temperamental and prideful Halsey to go ballistic with anger and shed tears of rage, even though by this time Taffy’s desperate plea for some assistance, any assistance was heard for all forces in the region,   Halsey had to be slapped in the face by his chief of staff to regain control of his emotions.

When he initially decided to go after Ozawa’s carriers, even his own staff were surprised.    They prepared and transmitted orders to detach the Halley’s fast battleship escorts to form an independent task force to continue to guard Taffy against any possible penetration by Kurita and Nishimura’s forces while the fast carriers went after Ozawa’s carriers.    The transmission was overheard by both Nimitz as well as Taffy, which caused them to assume these orders were executed so that Taffy was guarded by a force of 6 fast battleships.     But Halsey neglected to send the signal to actually execute that order.    So the fast battleships that could have stopped kurita before ever coming in contact with Taffy stayed in company with Halsey as the latter went on the wild goose chase after Ozawa’s decoy force.     Halsey went after Ozawa’s force which had no strategic value remaining, with a force of 6 modern battleships that ridiculously overmatched Ozawa’s two old WWI vintage battleships plus a handful of empty aircraft carriers, while leaving nothing to guard against Kurita, who had the Yamato on hand and could certainly have put up a real fight against these same modern battleships.

(June 29, 2023 at 11:51 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 29, 2023 at 7:11 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Halsey did as ordered.

No he didn’t.   He ordered this on his own initiative.   Nimitz certainly didn’t order him to do this, hence the “…..world wonders” query, which Halsey interpreted to be a personal rebuke.  

LOL. "...the world wonders" was padding to make the messages harder to break. Halsey was ordered to prevent the IJN carriers from interrupting the landing.

(June 29, 2023 at 11:43 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Hindsightium is much more precious than hooplaium, at least if one has a higher regard for the truth then for the rousing hoopla.  That’s why those who care for the truth adjust spectacular wartime claims of kills with what the actual enemy losses were after the enemy’s archives have become accessible.

It's useless in this case because you have no mechanism for giving any American at all any intel on the Japanese fuel status, which is what your "analysis" is based upon. You'tr criticizing them for not knowing something they had no way to know. That's obviously vapid.

Quote:There were many other instances on both sides where vastly outmatched forces fought just as courageously, for stakes just as high, and having had no reason to believe the enemy would back off.

No one has made the claim that this action wass unique, which renders your complaint here a strawman.

   

Quote: What initially set this apart was the perception that their courage was crowned was almost unbelievable success.

No, what sets this apart is the nobility of charging into certain death in the course of doing one's duty.

   

Quote:Yet hindsightium showed the success was not truly the result of their courage.    It was the natural course of the events given kurita’s views and situation of his fleet.

Again. I've already acknowledged there's no way Sho-1 was going to succeed. What commands awe is not their bravery, not the victory.

You've never served in the military, have you?

(June 29, 2023 at 11:51 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(June 29, 2023 at 7:11 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Halsey did as ordered.

No he didn’t.  

Nimitiz's orders to Halsey included the clause that should the IJN carriers show up, they would become the primary target.

Halsey erred in not leaving TF34 behind while he went to attack Ozawa.

The “world wonders” itself have been intended to be cryptographic padding, but it does not change the fact that the body of the message was a equally emphatic if slightly less sarcastic query to the same effect - where the fuck is Halsey.     And Halsey was too excitable to realize it might be cryptographic filler when he saw it, hence his making a scene on his bridge, throwing his cap to the deck, shedding tears, etc.

The same pro forms order to prioritize Japanese carriers was also given to Spruance 3 month before, and Spruance was perceptive enough to know the strategic situation demands he prioritizing the defense of the landing above any half baked go at Japanese carriers.   When Spruance’s decision was criticized amongst some naval aviators,  no less than Admiral King as well Nimitz Affirmed the correctness of Spruance’s decision.    Three month before was when the Japanese carrier force still had twice as many decks and many times more planes, thus potential for significance.      Naval aviator’s complaints aside, Spruance had nonetheless succeeded in largely destroying ozawa force’s combat potential, including all but one of Japan’s serviceable real fleet carriers as oppose to merchant ship, submarine/float plane tender and old battleship conversions.  All these were known to Halsey, making Halsey’s decision even more strategically tone deaf.    

But we can fairly deduce from halsey’s personality that it is not just poor perception of his real responsibility, but as a long standing carrier admiral from before the war,  his previous failure to match surface admiral Spruance’s score as an carrier force commander against Japanese carriers at midway and Mariannas that perhaps most strongly impelled him to go on his “Bull’s run”.

You're making shit up now. Messages don't have a tone of voice.

I didn't realize you were a Halsey expert. Should I alert the Naval History and Heritage Command?

(June 30, 2023 at 10:57 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: You're making shit up now. Messages don't have a tone of voice.

I didn't realize you were a Halsey expert. Should I alert the Naval History and Heritage Command?

Well, then halsey’s emotional reaction to the definitely toneless content of the naval message is even more over the top now, isn’t it.  I believe the toneless reaction to the toneless message was to the effect of “what the fuck did Chester mean by this….” While hat were thrown on the deck.