(August 21, 2023 at 9:20 am)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(August 21, 2023 at 9:17 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: He repented his sins in his last moments. Had his fun and doesn't have to pay. Christian logic is ludicrous.

I don't see how that would be ludicrous except in the sense of emotional repugnance.

What is the point of punishment except to be either a deterrent or to change character and behaviour?  If the event is past and there could be no deterrent, and if the person's character and behviour changed without need of suffering, then what purpose would there be to violence except to appease the emotions of others?

It's ludicrous because you don't have to behave, have your fun and then, at death's door, accept Jesus and get a get-out-of-hell-free card.

(August 21, 2023 at 9:29 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(August 21, 2023 at 9:20 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: I don't see how that would be ludicrous except in the sense of emotional repugnance.

What is the point of punishment except to be either a deterrent or to change character and behaviour?  If the event is past and there could be no deterrent, and if the person's character and behviour changed without need of suffering, then what purpose would there be to violence except to appease the emotions of others?

It's ludicrous because you don't have to behave, have your fun and then, at death's door, accept Jesus and get a get-out-of-hell-free card.

Why is that ludicrous?
Surely the most moral position (from within xtianity) is that everyone is forgiven, becomes good, and lives in bliss forever?

It seems roughly the same from outside a xtian POV too. That the 'best thing' would be an infinite number of morally perfect beings being good and experiencing bliss for infinite time.

(August 21, 2023 at 9:17 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(August 21, 2023 at 8:36 am)MarcusA Wrote: If Hitler ain't in hell, I don't want to go to heaven.

He repented his sins in his last moments. Had his fun and doesn't have to pay. Christian logic is ludicrous.

That is not my understanding of history.

There is no "knowing" any of this.

(August 21, 2023 at 9:33 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Surely the most moral position (from within xtianity) is that everyone is forgiven, becomes good, and lives in bliss forever?

"Forgiveness" is the get out of sin free card. You can be an utter cocksucker and go to Heaven. You don't have to pay for your sins, you just run away from them. Killed two hundred babies? God forgives you!

(August 21, 2023 at 9:50 am)MarcusA Wrote: There is no "knowing" any of this.

Or anything else in your religion. It's all made up.

(August 21, 2023 at 9:51 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(August 21, 2023 at 9:50 am)MarcusA Wrote: There is no "knowing" any of this.

Or anything else in your religion. It's all made up.

I have no religion.

(August 21, 2023 at 9:50 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(August 21, 2023 at 9:33 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Surely the most moral position (from within xtianity) is that everyone is forgiven, becomes good, and lives in bliss forever?

"Forgiveness" is the get out of sin free card. You can be an utter cocksucker and go to Heaven. You don't have to pay for your sins, you just run away from them. Killed two hundred babies? God forgives you!

Yes, that's right. But that seems 'fair' from a restorative justice or utilitarian POV, and only unfair from a retributive POV.

Again, what's the value of using violence upon someone who has truly changed their behaviour and character, except to appease the vengeance emotions of others?

(August 21, 2023 at 9:54 am)MarcusA Wrote:

(August 21, 2023 at 9:51 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Or anything else in your religion. It's all made up.

I have no religion.

Lying is a sin.

(August 21, 2023 at 10:00 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Again, what's the value of using violence upon someone who has truly changed their behaviour and character, except to appease the vengeance emotions of others?

Not at all what I was talking about.