(September 1, 2023 at 9:35 pm)MarcusA Wrote:

(August 15, 2023 at 3:39 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Did you use reason to reach that conclusion?

(September 1, 2023 at 7:13 pm)Ravenshire Wrote: If you hate rules and regulations, you hate haiku which adheres to very strict rules or it isn't haiku.

Rubbish. You just don't understand the history of haiku from Basho to now.

So, explain it.

(August 15, 2023 at 3:39 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(August 15, 2023 at 12:28 am)MarcusA Wrote: Rationalism is a religion.

Did you use reason to reach that conclusion?

(September 2, 2023 at 3:16 am)Ravenshire Wrote:

(September 1, 2023 at 9:35 pm)MarcusA Wrote: Rubbish. You just don't understand the history of haiku from Basho to now.

So, explain it.

Even Basho moved away from the strict 5-7-5 format on occasion. And English haiku has moved away from strict forms of haiku following the lead of the Japanese quite extensively in modern times.

(September 2, 2023 at 3:38 am)MarcusA Wrote:

(August 15, 2023 at 3:39 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Did you use reason to reach that conclusion?

(September 2, 2023 at 3:16 am)Ravenshire Wrote: So, explain it.

Even Basho moved away from the strict 5-7-5 format on occasion. And English haiku has moved away from strict forms of haiku following the lead of the Japanese quite extensively in modern times.

Examples?

(August 15, 2023 at 3:39 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(August 15, 2023 at 12:28 am)MarcusA Wrote: Rationalism is a religion.

Did you use reason to reach that conclusion?

(September 2, 2023 at 11:27 am)Ravenshire Wrote:

(September 2, 2023 at 3:38 am)MarcusA Wrote: Even Basho moved away from the strict 5-7-5 format on occasion. And English haiku has moved away from strict forms of haiku following the lead of the Japanese quite extensively in modern times.

Examples?

Ah shit, read some haiku.

(September 2, 2023 at 7:53 pm)MarcusA Wrote: Ah shit, read some haiku.

Santōka Taneda visited my neighborhood several times during his wanderings. Before my time, of course.

The house where he stayed is just down the hill from me. It's the only pre-war building still surviving. Small, but with a lovely garden. 

The current owner is a young designer who appreciates its history. He showed me the scars on the wooden beams caused by flying glass when the Bomb hit.

(September 2, 2023 at 7:53 pm)MarcusA Wrote:

(August 15, 2023 at 3:39 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Did you use reason to reach that conclusion?

(September 2, 2023 at 11:27 am)Ravenshire Wrote: Examples?

Ah shit, read some haiku.

That's what I thought...

(September 2, 2023 at 8:30 pm)Ravenshire Wrote:

(September 2, 2023 at 7:53 pm)MarcusA Wrote: Ah shit, read some haiku.

That's what I thought...

I've been told recently that if someone makes an assertion, and I ask for information backing up that assertion, it's OK for them to say "do your own research" or "I'm not in the mood." It seems to me as if that will have a chilling effect on serious discussion, but I'm not the one who makes the rules. 

Still, it's easy enough to find information about modern haiku. If you start with the famous guys like Ogiwara Seisensui and then follow the links, there's lots of information. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogiwara_Seisensui

Lots of links here:


https://kotobank.jp/word/%E8%8D%BB%E5%8E...0%B4-17728
[url=https://haiku-textbook.com/ogiwara-seisensui/][/url]

There are several traditions in Japan that are taught and handed down in the way that haiku poetry is. Tea ceremony and flower arrangement being the most famous. All of these have different traditional schools led by certified teachers. And there are modern non-traditional forms for all of them as well. So there are plenty of well-known haiku poets who don't follow the traditional rules, but since it's an old tradition to have people branch off from your tradition, it's not something to get mad about.

If you want to know something about rationalism, then read something like a book about rationalism. Don't expect people on the net to fill in the gaps in your knowledge about any subject.

(September 2, 2023 at 9:50 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(September 2, 2023 at 8:30 pm)Ravenshire Wrote: That's what I thought...

I've been told recently that if someone makes an assertion, and I ask for information backing up that assertion, it's OK for them to say "do your own research" or "I'm not in the mood." It seems to me as if that will have a chilling effect on serious discussion, but I'm not the one who makes the rules. 

Still, it's easy enough to find information about modern haiku. If you start with the famous guys like Ogiwara Seisensui and then follow the links, there's lots of information. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogiwara_Seisensui

Lots of links here:


https://kotobank.jp/word/%E8%8D%BB%E5%8E...0%B4-17728
[url=https://haiku-textbook.com/ogiwara-seisensui/][/url]

There are several traditions in Japan that are taught and handed down in the way that haiku poetry is. Tea ceremony and flower arrangement being the most famous. All of these have different traditional schools led by certified teachers. And there are modern non-traditional forms for all of them as well. So there are plenty of well-known haiku poets who don't follow the traditional rules, but since it's an old tradition to have people branch off from your tradition, it's not something to get mad about.

Maybe you should try reading for comprehension, though I know that's hard for you.

I was trying to get him to back up his claim, not trying to prove one of my own.

One of the really interesting things about that first generation of haiku poets to break away from tradition: they were among the first Japanese intellectuals to encounter European literature and philosophy, as the country opened up to foreign influence. The speed and depth with which they came to understand and engage with these ideas is truly impressive.

So Santōka Taneda, for example, never travelled abroad, but before he turned to poetry full-time he completed translations of books by Turgenev, from Russian, and Maupassant, from French. Ogiwara translated and wrote commentary on Goethe.

The give-and-take in those years when Japan was opening up is fascinating to read about. Kuki Shūzō, for example, became a friend of Heidegger in Germany, and then when he settled for a few years in Paris his French tutor was Jean-Paul Sartre. It seems pretty clear that he was the first to say "We must imagine Sisyphus as happy," and Camus stole it. Kuki was close with Nishida, by far the most famous Japanese philosopher of the modern era.

Kafū Nagai also studied in the US and Europe, mastered several languages and had a deep knowledge of French literature. But when he returned Tokyo he settled into the decadent life of an unambitious poet, spending his time with actors and prostitutes. He didn't write haiku, especially, but the closely-observed short stories and journals that he published are very much in accord with that way of thinking.

It would be very interesting to work out what, if anything, Western ideas contributed to the changes these people made to haiku writing.