(December 17, 2011 at 7:50 am)dtango Wrote: The judgment takes place just before death, but only for the unlucky ones who failed to pass the test and were executed. The rest go to live happily in the “Gods’ place.”

Are you arguing my point?

Quote:.
You like bizarre things, situations and beliefs. No?
Here is one for you:

In spell 464 of the Coffin Texts occurs a passage which is famous and well known because it is present in all kinds of the funerary texts.
The man who was found pure at his judgment was ferried over to where the gods live and he was given a field of his own. So he says:

I acquire this field of yours, O Hetep, which you love, the Mistress of the Winds, I eat and carouse in it, I drink in it, I plough in it, I reap in it, I am not destroyed in it , I copulate in it.*

“I copulate” in the hieroglyphic script is written nk (copulate) =j (I)
“I do not copulate” is written n (not) nk (copulate) =j (I)

The spells of the coffin texts come in many copies and the translators are commenting the differences between them. In this case the gloss of the translator R. O. Faulkner reads:

So B9C (the id number of the spell in which the above passage occurs); the negation before “nk” is certainly in error, having been derived from an arrangement such as that in B6C, where again the negation surely cannot apply to “nk”, while B5C has it both ays, wjhich makes no sense: B1C, B3C and B1L are correctly in the affirmative.

Please note that the negation applies only to “nk” copulate not to eating and drinking and ploughing the field. The ancient scribes who added the negation knew that love making was prohibited by the gods and, most probably, thought that the texts they were copying from were in error and they simply were correcting the error.
What they did not know was that love making was prohibited only before judgment –something that the translator obviously knows- and that those found pure were allowed to procreate after their judgment.

What is of value in mythology is not what we believe of the myths but what the ancients believed. We have to find why they believed whatever it was they believed into and not just speculate basing our assumptions on our modern mentality.

The belief that the gods were prohibiting sex is no mythology any longer, is a fact of life that can be investigated.
Remember that in the Egyptian tradition it was not the soul that was judged (the concept of the soul did not exist in the ancient Egyptian tradition) it was the body. When the priesthood transformed the judgment of the living into a judgment of the dead they could not say that now the soul is to be judged because it was impossible to eradicate or falsify the ancient texts. They had to go on judging the body and they resorted to the madness of the mummification.

People today believe in the judgment of the soul because Egyptologists managed to label the texts “magical incantation,” to translate them in a way to confirm their assertion and thus render them useless even to the scientists who were willing to study them.

The above is absolutely irrelevant to my questions. You asserted that no other cultures have similar burial practices to the Egyptians. The implication being that there is no way to tie the after life beliefs of the Egyptians to their burial practices by way of comparison to other cultures. Is this what you were saying and what you believe? Simple answer, please. Your walls of text have not been enlightening in terms of the subject matter thusfar and I really just want to stay on track of the conversation.

@ Shell B

I regret the late reply but I have problems with the editor. When I bring forward the text from the "Word" the knob "Preview Post" is not functioning and I cannot post.
I am now trying through typing my reply directly.

Well, your point was that....Their manner of burial is evidence that they believed in life after death. and so, "yes", I am arguing your point.

Then you wrote:

You asserted that no other cultures have similar burial practices to the Egyptians. The implication being that there is no way to tie the after life beliefs of the Egyptians to their burial practices by way of comparison to other cultures.
Is this what you were saying and what you believe? Simple answer, please. Your walls of text have not been enlightening in terms of the subject matter thusfar and I really just want to stay on track of the conversation.

I did not assert that no other cultures have similar burial practices to the Egyptians.
In answering your question “How about the other cultures whose burials indicate belief in an afterlife?” I said “There is no such culture, other than the Egyptian!” meaning that there is no other culture believing in afterlife and not that there is no other culture having similar burial practices.

Perhaps we can now start afresh without misunderstandings.

Care for the dead is not evidence of a belief in afterlife.
Killing of the first born and artificially deforming the skulls of infants were elements of their culture that we cannot understand. Belief in after life is an element of our culture which, if they were told about, they wouldn’t understand. Men care for their dead for the simple reason that when one’s a beloved one dies is not transformed automatically into dead meat. We know that the Egyptians, for the last 3.000 years of their history, believed in afterlife because they told us so. For the other cultures with similar burying practices we cannot know.

In addition to that, we now have the means to find out how the Egyptians arrived in so unreasonable ideas and thus we know that similar conditions should prevail if the same ideas were to be produced independently elsewhere.

You, and everyone else of course, say that the Egyptians believed in afterlife but do not know that for the Egyptians it was the dead who lived in the afterlife and not their souls.
Can you imagine dead people living after their deaths? No. You cannot! You’ll have to summon such concepts as spirits and souls.
Well, neither spirits nor souls were judged according to Egyptian theology!

As regards the walls of texts, the title of the thread is “Egyptian funerary texts” and it is about time that you (atheists) learn something about them.

Quote:Well, your point was that....Their manner of burial is evidence that they believed in life after death. and so, "yes", I am arguing your point.

By saying this?

Quote:The rest go to live happily in the “Gods’ place.”

Quote:I did not assert that no other cultures have similar burial practices to the Egyptians.
In answering your question “How about the other cultures whose burials indicate belief in an afterlife?” I said “There is no such culture, other than the Egyptian!” meaning that there is no other culture believing in afterlife and not that there is no other culture having similar burial practices.

So, we went from "Egyptians do not believe in the afterlife" to "Egyptians are the only culture that believes in the afterlife."

Quote:Care for the dead is not evidence of a belief in afterlife.

No, but burying them with things they will presumably need in the afterlife is evidence of belief in the afterlife.

Quote:Killing of the first born and artificially deforming the skulls of infants were elements of their culture that we cannot understand.

I think you are confusing inability to understand with absence of a wish to emulate. Besides, the killing of the first born was not part of their culture. It is part of mythology that came later.

Quote:We know that the Egyptians, for the last 3.000 years of their history, believed in afterlife because they told us so. For the other cultures with similar burying practices we cannot know.

Yes, we can.

Quote:You, and everyone else of course, say that the Egyptians believed in afterlife but do not know that for the Egyptians it was the dead who lived in the afterlife and not their souls.

You are arguing that Egyptians did not believe in the afterlife whilst saying that they believed the dead lived in the afterlife.

Quote:Can you imagine dead people living after their deaths? No. You cannot! You’ll have to summon such concepts as spirits and souls.
Well, neither spirits nor souls were judged according to Egyptian theology!

So, you are not arguing the absence of an afterlife. You are arguing an absence of souls. Not all cultures that believe in the afterlife believe in spirits and souls. Besides, believing that the dead live in an afterlife kind of promotes the idea that they have some other vessel, as they Egyptians clearly knew that the bodies didn't just up and leave.

Quote:As regards the walls of texts, the title of the thread is “Egyptian funerary texts” and it is about time that you (atheists) learn something about them.

I take it you are learning with us.

(December 18, 2011 at 6:50 am)Shell B Wrote: By saying this? “The rest go to live happily in the “Gods’ place.”

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Either my English is too bad, or you argue for the sake of argument.
I wrote: The judgment takes place just before death, but only for the unlucky ones who failed to pass the test and were executed. The rest go to live happily in the “Gods’ place.” Those who go to live in the Neter-khert, the “Gods’ place,” are people alive. I think I made it clear that the texts are describing judgment of people alive by people alive (go above and read what Plato wrote) and the life referred to is the life after judgment and not the life after death.

(December 18, 2011 at 6:50 am)Shell B Wrote: So, we went from "Egyptians do not believe in the afterlife" to "Egyptians are the only culture that believes in the afterlife."

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When citing do not forget the context!
The Egyptian people did not believe in after life. The last 3,000 years of their history the Egyptian priesthood preached the afterlife nonsense.

There are golden plates, or tablets, written in the ancient Greek language that, imitating Egyptian traditions, were placed into the graves. They were of orphic origin. Orphics believed in the afterlife but they could not force their beliefs upon the entire Greek population as the priesthood could and did in Egypt or the Christians did later in Greece and the rest of Europe.

So what are we going to say, that the ancient Greeks believed in afterlife because of the silly beliefs of the orhics and some idealist philosophers? No we do not! Then why don’t we do the same distinction for the Egyptians?

Because scholars have no idea of what the funerary texts are about. That is why!

(December 18, 2011 at 6:50 am)Shell B Wrote: No, but burying them with things they will presumably need in the afterlife is evidence of belief in the afterlife.

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Sure, the collar I buried my dog with he is going to use in his afterlife!!

(December 18, 2011 at 6:50 am)Shell B Wrote: Besides, the killing of the first born was not part of their culture. It is part of mythology that came later.

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Most probably they are still killing the firstborns. Reading the “Golden Bough” is a must!

(December 18, 2011 at 6:50 am)Shell B Wrote: You are arguing that Egyptians did not believe in the afterlife whilst saying that they believed the dead lived in the afterlife.

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Yes! This remark of yours is entirely justified but it was not me who translated the Egyptian term “m(w)t” as “dead.” It was the translations of the Egyptologists whose books were published by the...Oxford University Press.
m(w)t does not mean “dead” because dead people do not have sex!!

(December 18, 2011 at 6:50 am)Shell B Wrote: Besides, believing that the dead live in an afterlife kind of promotes the idea that they have some other vessel, as they Egyptians clearly knew that the bodies didn't just up and leave.

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Can you give me an example of such a vessel?

Your pooche's grave was a bad analogy the first time you tried to peddle it Dtango. Repetition doesn't make it any more solid. You choose to argue against the notion that many cultures believed in life after death because it doesn't fit with what I'm going to be calling your crackpot theory from this point forward. The evidence we have says they did. Confirmation bias, selection bias. I find it ironic that you're actually creating a myth with all of this.

Dtango's Egyptian funerary cargo cult.

Egyptian, as I recall ( and its been a while ) , is a combination of phonetic symbols, morphemes, and something else similar to punctuation which modifies the others. (The marking which denotes that Ysirir is a "people" not a "nation" in the Merneptah stele comes to mind.)

My point is that Old Kingdom Egyptian would have had no word for Greek,
Persia, or Rome yet somehow they managed to incorporate these concepts into the language.

As to the idea of the pre-conceptions of the translators, consider these side by side "translations" of the Khirbet Qeiyafa ostracon.

Quote: But how certain are the contents of this inscription? Without having to know Hebrew or the finer points of Northwest Semitic epigraphy, we can detect the actual level of uncertainty just by comparing these translations:

A. Translation on John Hobbins’ website:

1 Do not do [anything bad?], and serve [personal name?]

2 ruler of [geographical name?] . . . ruler . . .

3 [geographical names?] . . .

4 [unclear] and wreak judgment on YSD king of Gath . . .

5 seren of G[aza? . . .] [unclear] . . .

B. Translation “provided by the University of Haifa”:

1 you shall not do [it], but worship the [Lord]. 

2 Judge the sla[ve] and the wid[ow] / Judge the orph[an] 

3 [and] the stranger. [Pl]ead for the infant / plead for the po[or and] 

4 the widow. Rehabilitate [the poor] at the hands of the king. 

5 Protect the po[or and] the slave / [supp]ort the stranger

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co...ption.html

Part of the problem here may well be that zionist fanatics are trying to shoehorn this script into "Hebrew" in order to prop up the fucking bible.
Noted Epigrapher, Christopher Rollston, says it is not "Hebrew" at all.
We do not face that same kind of uncertainty with Egyptian but when you consider the number of people in the world who can read this stuff at all it is a bit disquieting to see them so far off reading the same thing.

Oh, I by no means think that our translations of lost languages are in any way reliable. I find context to be much more illuminating.

To be honest, I think this tango guy is either into hokey history or there is a language barrier here. No offense, new guy.

His English is fine. It is the former.

Probably important to remember that like everything else in the world Egyptian religion evolved ( bad news there, Waldork!).

We do not find any religious texts until the pyramid of last king of the 5th Dynasty, Unas. In spite of what the Egyptologists claim therefore, all of the prior pharaohs of Egypt, including Djoser, Sneferu, Khufu, Khafre, and Menkaure did not seem to have any magical incantations guiding them to the "afterlife."

So when this idea popped into Egyptian consciousness is open to speculation but it seems very odd that the majority of the Old Kingdom did not act on it.