(September 10, 2023 at 6:27 pm)Foxaèr Wrote: I don't remember if I had acne at the start of puberty, but at a certain point I really took notice of it and personally thought it made me unattractive. Granted, now I know better even though I continue to treat my skin as an adult.

One day, I saw this absolutely gorgeous guy. And guess what. His face was more riddled with acne than mine ever was. Yet his skin affliction did not seem to negatively affect him.

Yes. Acne can be horrendous for some people's self esteem while not affecting others much at all. Some can get bullied for it a little, others not much at all, and some horrendouslly so. My ex-wife had a bad time with her acne both as a teen and an adult. It affected her a lot.

(September 10, 2023 at 6:29 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: @arewethereyet
So we agree some people get grief for their appearance.  And that this has psychological effects that need to be managed.

It's good we can at least agree on that.

The thing is that the grief he got ended with age.  By the time he was in high school, kids were decent enough to just not mention it any more.  He isn't approached by assholes and hasn't been for years. 

I had him in his stroller and we were at an outing with the family and we were approached by a man older than me who asked what happened to his face.  I simply asked him what happened to his manners...he slunk away.

Amazingly, I was having to purchase condoms for him in his teens.  Seems not to have sent him to basement feeling sorry for himself.

Thats good to hear. Your son was lucky to have not been terribly bullied as a teen or experienced social ostracisation as an adult, nor have his dating life seriously impeded by his looks, and he clearly had a very supportive mother.

You can get grief from other kids just as easily, by being too pretty. Somehow, must of us that ever got teased for the way that we look for whatever reason...as though kids need any sort of reason.... don't turn into Supreme Gentlemen.

(September 10, 2023 at 2:01 pm)GrandizerII Wrote:

(September 10, 2023 at 7:53 am)no one Wrote: I know I am unattactive. That I do not possess a single redeeming quality. There isn't anything I bring to the table, that I make everything worse.

Not sure if serious or just being facetious. Either way, assuming you're serious, you being attractive or not is for other people to decide. You are not necessarily the final arbiter of all truths regarding yourself.

And this is something I want to pound into people like FF's heads since that Black Pill thread. Failing to land a romantic/sexual relationship with someone is because of lack of skills, lack of opportunity, lack of self-confidence, lack of self-esteem, fear of rejection, being too safe, being too focused on specific types of people that aren't compatible with you, etc. Many reasons. Not having exceptionally good looks, however, is not generally one of them.

Sure, if you are an exceptionally good looking man, you will probably have far more sex and flings than your typical guy. And maybe far more success in general. But being average looking isn't the curse that Black Pillers make it out to be. The real curse is what's often associated with having average looks: the stuff I mentioned in my previous paragraph. Yes, it's partly luck, because you have to put yourself out there and be in the right places at the right time. And you have to get out of your comfort zone, which can be quite stressful. But if you want a relationship, and especially if you're a guy, you have to do some work on yourself and how you interact with other people. I'm not even talking just about the stereotypical incels at this point.

An average-looking guy myself, I only had to get over my fear of rejection. That paralyzed me when I was a teen, but after dealing with more serious stuff, I realized that a simple "no" wasn't going to kill me.

My mom gave me the best woman advice ever: "Tell them how you feel about them, and let them answer. They will, one way or the other, give you a reply." But you have to be able to hear "no" and not get butthurt. It's really not that goddamned hard. Do not take counsel in your fears. The ability to love requires the ability to lay yourself vulnerable.

And in an answer that might go into FF's "what's a real man" thread, a real man (read -- a real adult, male or female) ain't afraid to lay it on the line, win, lose, or draw.

(September 10, 2023 at 4:47 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I thought that was implied quite strongly in that post.
But yes, it might well be I'm becoming overwhelmed by the many responses.

Perhaps you can clarify, then, that you think there are genuine cases where someone is traumatised and lonely because of their looks and that this isn't them being soft?

I don't see how it was even strongly implied at all?

But sure, I can clarify. People get mistreated because of the way they look, and they're not soft for suffering trauma as a result.

But how does any of this translate to "I can't get a girlfriend because I look ugly and no girl wants me"? Do you not really see how irrational this kind of thinking is? Do you not see how this is just a way to escape accountability/responsibility by claiming it's how reality is and resigning oneself to self-imposed doom instead of doing something about their life?

Surely you're familiar with self-fulfilling prophecies. Maybe what BlackPillers should do is take an official course in psychology or something.

We agree, then, people get mistreated for the way they look. And trauma associated with that isn't because they're soft.

A) Would you think it rational that someone who has been mistreated because of their appearance, been rejected romantically by others because of their appearance, and been directly and indirectly told scores of times that they are ugly and romantically undesirable, develops the opinion that they are going to find it very difficult to obtain a romantic partner because of the way they look?

B) Do you think that things like body dysmorphia and catatrosphising are likely symptoms of the trauma caused by being mistreated and socially rejected because of looks?

C) Do you think that going a long time without basic psychological needs, like intimacy and friendship and love etc, is trauma inducing in itself?

D) Do you think that someone who has been traumatised because of their appearance, and who is struggling with dating etc, will be best helped (if possible) by some form of course in psychology or becoming good looking?

(September 11, 2023 at 2:37 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: A)  Would you think it rational that someone who has been mistreated because of their appearance, been rejected romantically by others because of their appearance, and been directly and indirectly told scores of times that they are ugly and romantically undesirable, develops the opinion that they are going to find it very difficult to obtain a romantic partner because of the way they look?

It is understandable why humans hold to various opinions based on their experience (and perceptions of their experiences), but it doesn't mean these opinions can't still be based on irrational thinking. For example, if someone gets bullied or mistreated for their looks by a select group of people, that doesn't mean nobody at all could fall for them. It's a nonsequitur

Quote:B)  Do you think that things like body dysmorphia and catatrosphising are likely symptoms of the trauma caused by being mistreated and socially rejected because of looks?

Yes, but again that doesn't mean that this thinking is rational.

Quote:C)  Do you think that going a long time without basic psychological needs, like intimacy and friendship and love etc, is trauma inducing in itself?

Yes, but again it doesn't mean that the resultant thinking that they have no worth and that nobody could ever love them is rational.

Quote:D)  Do you think that someone who has been traumatised because of their appearance, and who is struggling with dating etc, will be best helped (if possible) by some form of course in psychology or becoming good looking?

Why only these two options? A course in psychology would help of course, but at the end of day, what ideally would help is to get them to challenge their own thoughts and biases, keeping in mind not only the selective observations they are prone to hold but all the observational evidence at hand. With the help of an effective professional of course.

On the other hand, what lesson does one learn by magically becoming good looking? That one's worth is measured by how good they look? What a unhealthy (and unreasonable) way of looking at things.

A) I agree that no matter what evidence is encountered in one's life it would always be strictly false to believe that there is zero possibility of anyone at all ever finding them attractive. Most BPers I've spoken to accept this.

But what I said wasn't that. I asked if based on good evidence would it be rational to think that it was going to be very difficult to find a romantic partner. Not impossible.

I think it fairly clear that it would indeed be rational to conclude that based on that evidence. Do you not agree?

And, of course, this is before we've tackled the issue of whether simply being able to find some romantic partner at some time is enough to remove the trauma or the loneliness. We can address this in the future.

B) We agree. It would in fact be irrational by definition. But it wouldn't be something blameworthy or a sign of weakness or a personality defect if such irrational thinking normally arose from such trauma. It would simply be a normal consequence of trauma arising from being ugly. There seems a direct throughline for some people from being ugly to having body dysmorphia which involves at no point any personal weakness.

C) We agree. So even without mistreatment or any character flaws someone can easily end up mentally ill simply from loneliness.

D) I present those two options because it seems to me that you think that the root issue is psychological rather than physical/practical and I wanted that clarified. If you had the power to choose either it seems that you would use your magic to give them a different attitude than give them a different body. And you seem to justify that choice on some moral 'lesson' value system.

To me that seems both inefficient and unethical, in that you're picking to treat a symptom rather than the disease based on some moral framework you have. Would gender dysphoria, or scarring, or disability be treated the same way? Isn't it nearly always preferable to treat the physical malady that has led to the psychological problem, if possible, rather than try to change the way the sufferer thinks about their malady?

From my own experience, and in talking to many others who have had relationship and sex therapy, it seems to me that psychological approaches to solve this issue aren't very effective. And I certainly can't imagine they are as effective as a physical change would be if it was possible.

(September 11, 2023 at 8:34 am)GrandizerII Wrote: On the other hand, what lesson does one learn by magically becoming good looking? That one's worth is measured by how good they look? What a unhealthy (and unreasonable) way of looking at things.

He's begging the question, unless and until he demonstrates that the majority of incels are that way because they look like the Elephant man.