(September 13, 2023 at 10:52 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 13, 2023 at 10:40 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: Of course I don't believe it.  But at least with the description of god in the Bible I don't have a moving target. I just read it right off the scroll.  I describe myself as anti-theist in relation to the god described in the bible.  If believers have another god I'll take a crack at it too, but they have to write it down so I'm not chasing my tail.

 (Qal) to say, to answer, to say in one’s heart, to think, to command, to promise, to intend.

The Bible describes a god as anything or anyone mighty or venerated. Examples, Jehovah, Jesus, Satan, Moses, the judges of Israel, angels, Dagon, Tammuz, Baal, Ashtoreth, etc. 

Anti-theist is a good choice. Better than atheist, in my opinion. More accurately descriptive. 

Sorry, sir, but no. 
In Hebrew culture there are many "divine beings" .... when the Witch of Endor conjures the shade of Samuel for Saul in Kings, (which was forbidden ... to disturb a dead shade), she is asked what she sees ... only a witch could see a shade, and she tells Saul that she sees a "divine being rising up". The Hebrew pantheon had any number of "divine beings", but they were not gods. These divine beings lived in heaven with Yahweh, and not in Sheol where all other dead shades lived. In recent scholarship, there are a number of PhD theses written about the "heavenly host" who are all "divine beings" but they are certainly not gods, nor do any of them equate to the status of Yahweh.

(September 13, 2023 at 8:10 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 4, 2023 at 4:26 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: I can understand the various reasons that someone may convert, but I'm curious as to why someone would retain their belief after years of being a Christian and having spent time studying the bible and theology, looking at arguments for/against, and so on.

So, for those who have been a believing adult for more than 5 years, and who are feel they're conversant on the various arguments for/against, what is it that keeps you believing?  

Any particular philosophical positions, or specific events that happened, or a particular inner feeling or intuition, etc?

No particular philosophical position, specific events or inner feelings or intuition. I was an unbeliever for 27 years, and became a believer 30 years ago. To me it makes the most sense. I can see the ration and logic in a purely atheistic position but I can't see the sense in militant fundamentalist atheism.

Can you give some more details as to why/what makes the most sense in Christianity?

(September 14, 2023 at 1:00 am)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(September 13, 2023 at 8:10 pm)Data Wrote: No particular philosophical position, specific events or inner feelings or intuition. I was an unbeliever for 27 years, and became a believer 30 years ago. To me it makes the most sense. I can see the ration and logic in a purely atheistic position but I can't see the sense in militant fundamentalist atheism.

Can you give some more details as to why/what makes the most sense in Christianity?

I don't specifically concern myself with Christian tradition as I do specifically the Bible itself. So, most of what I see in traditional religious teachings is to me, almost pure nonsense. The trinity from Plato, immortal soul from Socrates, hell from Dante and Milton, cross from Constantine, Easter from Astarte (Ishtar), Christmas from Saturnalia and Dickens, the rapture from Darby - all religious nonsense to me. And not supported by scripture. Alexander the Great had a tremendously influential impact on Jewish thinking after 332 BCE and Constantine the Great on Christianity after 325 CE.  Much earlier Babylonian teachings influenced Greek philosophy over time and it was introduced into theological traditions from there. 

So, the teachings of the Bible without that influence is what seems more practical and sensible than theology will allow. God isn't omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, or a trinity. A god is simply anything or anyone mighty/venerated, Hell is the common grave of man with no consciousness or moral distinction. the soul is the life, blood, experience of any breathing creature, it's mortal, spirit is any invisible active force, wind, breath, compelled mental inclination (mean spirited, broken spirit), people don't die and go to heaven, the meek inherit the earth, not heaven, the universe wasn't created in six literal days, etc. Bible teachings without pagan corruption.

(September 14, 2023 at 12:10 am)Bucky Ball Wrote:

(September 13, 2023 at 10:52 pm)Data Wrote:  (Qal) to say, to answer, to say in one’s heart, to think, to command, to promise, to intend.

The Bible describes a god as anything or anyone mighty or venerated. Examples, Jehovah, Jesus, Satan, Moses, the judges of Israel, angels, Dagon, Tammuz, Baal, Ashtoreth, etc. 

Anti-theist is a good choice. Better than atheist, in my opinion. More accurately descriptive. 

Sorry, sir, but no. 
In Hebrew culture there are many "divine beings" .... when the Witch of Endor conjures the shade of Samuel for Saul in Kings, (which was forbidden ... to disturb a dead shade), she is asked what she sees ... only a witch could see a shade, and she tells Saul that she sees a "divine being rising up". The Hebrew pantheon had any number of "divine beings", but they were not gods. These divine beings lived in heaven with Yahweh, and not in Sheol where all other dead shades lived. In recent scholarship, there are a number of PhD theses written about the "heavenly host" who are all "divine beings" but they are certainly not gods, nor do any of them equate to the status of Yahweh.

You seem to be referencing Jewish tradition which I'm not conversant in. I was referencing the Bible. So, in the Bible a divine being is a god, from the Hebrew el and variations thereof (Elohim, etc.). Anything or anyone mighty/venerated. The spirit, or shade, summoned by the witch of Endor was a deceptive, demonic spirit being. Nothing lives in sheol, sheol is the grave, corresponding to the Greek hades.

(September 14, 2023 at 3:33 am)Data Wrote:

(September 14, 2023 at 1:00 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Can you give some more details as to why/what makes the most sense in Christianity?

So, the teachings of the Bible without that influence is what seems more practical and sensible than theology will allow. God isn't omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, or a trinity. A god is simply anything or anyone mighty/venerated, Hell is the common grave of man with no consciousness or moral distinction. the soul is the life, blood, experience of any breathing creature, it's mortal, spirit is any invisible active force, wind, breath, compelled mental inclination (mean spirited, broken spirit), people don't die and go to heaven, the meek inherit the earth, not heaven, the universe wasn't created in six literal days, etc. Bible teachings without pagan corruption.

So you're an atheist, materialist Christian?

(September 14, 2023 at 3:59 am)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(September 14, 2023 at 3:33 am)Data Wrote: So, the teachings of the Bible without that influence is what seems more practical and sensible than theology will allow. God isn't omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, or a trinity. A god is simply anything or anyone mighty/venerated, Hell is the common grave of man with no consciousness or moral distinction. the soul is the life, blood, experience of any breathing creature, it's mortal, spirit is any invisible active force, wind, breath, compelled mental inclination (mean spirited, broken spirit), people don't die and go to heaven, the meek inherit the earth, not heaven, the universe wasn't created in six literal days, etc. Bible teachings without pagan corruption.

So you're an atheist, materialist Christian?

I wouldn't identify as any of those things.

How would you identify, then, please?

(September 14, 2023 at 3:51 am)Data Wrote:

(September 14, 2023 at 12:10 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: Sorry, sir, but no. 
In Hebrew culture there are many "divine beings" .... when the Witch of Endor conjures the shade of Samuel for Saul in Kings, (which was forbidden ... to disturb a dead shade), she is asked what she sees ... only a witch could see a shade, and she tells Saul that she sees a "divine being rising up". The Hebrew pantheon had any number of "divine beings", but they were not gods. These divine beings lived in heaven with Yahweh, and not in Sheol where all other dead shades lived. In recent scholarship, there are a number of PhD theses written about the "heavenly host" who are all "divine beings" but they are certainly not gods, nor do any of them equate to the status of Yahweh.

You seem to be referencing Jewish tradition which I'm not conversant in. I was referencing the Bible. So, in the Bible a divine being is a god, from the Hebrew el and variations thereof (Elohim, etc.). Anything or anyone mighty/venerated. The spirit, or shade, summoned by the witch of Endor was a deceptive, demonic spirit being. Nothing lives in sheol, sheol is the grave, corresponding to the Greek hades.

No. I'm talking about the Jews who wrote the Bible. And the beliefs of the Jews in the Bible. The story above is IN the Bible. It's in Kings, just like I said.  
The Jews (who wrote the Bible), .. including the story above, thought the "Heavenly Host" was comprised of many divine beings, but they were not gods.  
You're also wrong about the shade of Samuel. Shades were not deceptive or demonic. 
They thought all dead souls (shades) lived in Sheol. Sheol was the grave, and dead souls were in a "dormant" state. 
Obviously you are not conversant with ancient Jewish tradition, or the Bible.

"The concept of a divine assembly (or council) is attested in the archaic Sumerian, Akkadian, Old Babylonian, Ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, Canaanite, Israelite, Celtic, Ancient Greek and Ancient Roman and Nordic pantheons. Ancient Egyptian literature reveals the existence of a "synod of the gods".

"Sheol (/ˈʃiː. oʊl, -əl/ SHEE-ohl, -⁠uhl; Hebrew: שְׁאוֹל‎ Šəʾōl, Tiberian: Šŏʾōl) in the Hebrew Bible is a place of still darkness which lies after death. Although not well defined in the Tanakh, Sheol in this view was a subterranean underworld where the souls of the dead went after the body died."

All the dead were thought to go to Sheol. The righteous and the unrighteous.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol#External_links

(September 14, 2023 at 5:38 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: How would you identify, then, please?

Contextually, I'm a Bible student and believer. Theist, practical, spiritual. A bit of an asshole, really. Not terribly bright. Boring . . . uh, well, that's enough, I suppose. Oh, former practicing homosexual, liar, thief. Felon. Artist, musician, retired. Just the usual nonsense that is part of the human experience in the modern day smoky ruins of a sinful world.

ETA: I forgot the most important, to me; fair and skeptical.

OK, cool.

Can you tell more about what type of god you believe exists and why?
And also what you mean by believing the bible and why?

Regarding being a former gay, there's a thread on sexual fluidity about people whose sexuality changes in adult life. It'd be cool if you shared your story of how you changed from gay to whatever you are now there. Unless you just meant you're now celibate, but no worries.