(September 16, 2023 at 11:44 am)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 11:09 am)LinuxGal Wrote: On the contrary, St. Michael the archangel was created by God the Son, Jesus Christ, as it is written...

No, you need to think about what you're saying. Michael is Jesus. He was created by Jehovah.

According to Sacred Scripture, Michael the archangel is definitely NOT the Lord:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

(Did you think an atheist forum was going to be like fishing with dynamite?)

(September 16, 2023 at 11:47 am)GrandizerII Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 11:44 am)Data Wrote: No, you need to think about what you're saying. Michael is Jesus. He was created by Jehovah.

Where in the Bible does it say Michael is Jesus? Are you a JW, by the way?

No. Why does everyone always think that. Because we both dismiss stupid pagan tradition. The JW's aren't original and neither am I. It all comes from somewhere else. 

Are we (the JWs and I) the only ones that think Jesus is Michael? No. Joseph Benson, E. W. Hengstenberg, J. P. Lange, Butterworth, Cruden, Taylor, Guyse all wrote that Michael and Jesus were the same.

Clarke's Commentary (Adam Clarke) - "Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host .... Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders .... hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."

W. E. Vine - the "voice of the archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ" - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 64.

The 1599 Geneva Study Bible: Christ is the Prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: - "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev. 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel" – vol. 3, p. 2048, Eerdmans Publishing, 1984 printing.

John Calvin: "I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." - J. Calvin, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

Brown's Dictionary of the Bible - on 'Michael' and 'Angel,' both these words do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms that Christ is the Archangel.

The NIV Study Bible - "The Angel of the LORD .... Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this 'angel' was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God's Messenger-Servant. It may be ..., the angel could speak on behalf of the One who sent him." - footnote for Gen. 16:7. Zondervan Publishing, 1985

Smith's Bible Dictionary (says of Michael) - "Angel of the Lord. ... Christ's visible form before the incarnation. p. 40"

Today's Dictionary of the Bible - "Angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah] - occurs many times in the Old Testament, where in almost every instance it means a supernatural personage to be distinguished from Jehovah .... Some feel the pre-incarnate Christ is meant." Bethany House Publ., 1982, p. 39.

(September 16, 2023 at 12:02 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 11:44 am)Data Wrote: No, you need to think about what you're saying. Michael is Jesus. He was created by Jehovah.

According to Sacred Scripture, Michael the archangel is definitely NOT the Lord:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

(Did you think an atheist forum was going to be like fishing with dynamite?)

I knew it would be like that. And I knew you wouldn't know it would be like that. That's why you were jumping around like a fish out of water changing the subject without answering anything I said earlier on.

But let's set that aside for now.

How do you conclude Michael isn't Jesus with Jude 1:9? The Lord rebuke you. I'm curious how you reason there.

(September 16, 2023 at 11:41 am)Data Wrote: Angels in God's image: Genesis 1:26: And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." Us is Jehovah and Michael. “In our image (shadow; semblance).” Hebrew betsal‧me′nu. Michael - (Masoretic from Codex Leningrad Vatican ms 1209 - Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) Hebrew, Mi‧kha‧ʼel′) (Septuagint, Syriac Peshitta, Latin Vulgate) meaning “Who Is Like God?” Idiot.

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Data: Jesus.  AKA Michael.

Author of Hebrews: It was a rhetorical question.

(September 16, 2023 at 12:03 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 11:47 am)GrandizerII Wrote: Where in the Bible does it say Michael is Jesus? Are you a JW, by the way?

No. Why does everyone always think that. Because we both dismiss stupid pagan tradition. The JW's aren't original and neither am I. It all comes from somewhere else. 

Are we (the JWs and I) the only ones that think Jesus is Michael? No. Joseph Benson, E. W. Hengstenberg, J. P. Lange, Butterworth, Cruden, Taylor, Guyse all wrote that Michael and Jesus were the same.

Clarke's Commentary (Adam Clarke) - "Let it be observed that the word archangel is never found in the plural number in the sacred writings. There can be properly only one archangel, one chief or head of all the angelic host .... Michael is this archangel, and head of all the angelic orders .... hence by this personage, in the Apocalypse, many understand the Lord Jesus."

W. E. Vine - the "voice of the archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ" - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 64.

The 1599 Geneva Study Bible: Christ is the Prince of angels and head of the Church, who bears that iron rod."

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: - "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev. 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel" – vol. 3, p. 2048, Eerdmans Publishing, 1984 printing.

John Calvin: "I embrace the opinion of those who refer this to the person of Christ, because it suits the subject best to represent him as standing forward for the defense of his elect people." - J. Calvin, Commentaries On The Book Of The Prophet Daniel, trans. T. Myers (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1979), vol. 2 p. 369.

Brown's Dictionary of the Bible - on 'Michael' and 'Angel,' both these words do sometimes refer to Christ; and also affirms that Christ is the Archangel.

The NIV Study Bible - "The Angel of the LORD .... Traditional Christian interpretation has held that this 'angel' was a preincarnate manifestation of Christ as God's Messenger-Servant. It may be ..., the angel could speak on behalf of the One who sent him." - footnote for Gen. 16:7. Zondervan Publishing, 1985

Smith's Bible Dictionary (says of Michael) - "Angel of the Lord. ... Christ's visible form before the incarnation. p. 40"

Today's Dictionary of the Bible - "Angel of the Lord [angel of Jehovah] - occurs many times in the Old Testament, where in almost every instance it means a supernatural personage to be distinguished from Jehovah .... Some feel the pre-incarnate Christ is meant." Bethany House Publ., 1982, p. 39.

Just asking. So your belief that Michael is Jesus is not really from any passage in the Bible, but rather from interpretations by a select few later Christians?

(September 16, 2023 at 12:07 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 12:02 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: According to Sacred Scripture, Michael the archangel is definitely NOT the Lord:

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

(Did you think an atheist forum was going to be like fishing with dynamite?)

How do you conclude Michael isn't Jesus with Jude 1:9? The Lord rebuke you. I'm curious how you reason there.

Michael did not consider himself of sufficient rank to judge or even accuse one of his own order.  In this way he was like Eönwë the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë after the first defeat of Melkor. It was not given to a Maiar to judge one of the Valar. Yet if Michael was the eternally begotten Son of God, as you claim, then he would clearly be in a higher pay grade than Satan.

(September 16, 2023 at 11:41 am)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 8:44 am)Bucky Ball Wrote: LMFAO
That's great. What random word generator do you use ?
Unfortunately for you, you are totally incapable of supporting the bullshit you post.
No one her buys your Buy-Bull.
You are yet another nut-job dismissed.
You can cite no scholar that buys your hogwash.

It's all in my head, Sweet Wisdom. You can't read it in a book. You can't be indoctrinated. Yeah, this stuff, the stuff I'm saying? You might as well not pay any attention to it at all, Dumbo. You're all ears. No brain. Ya' can't think for yourself.

I don't impress you. You're losing . . . Mr. Ball. Take another approach. Take, in fact, one for the team. Sacrifice your ego to the groupthink. Don't cite scholars to me. I already know them and your religiosity only fucks it up in translation. No one else is interested and I already know them. Think, Mr. Ball, for yourself.

Let's dance!

What I said:

Angels in God's image: Genesis 1:26: And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." Us is Jehovah and Michael. “In our image (shadow; semblance).” Hebrew betsal‧me′nu. Michael - (Masoretic from Codex Leningrad Vatican ms 1209 - Biblia Hebraica and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) Hebrew, Mi‧kha‧ʼel′) (Septuagint, Syriac Peshitta, Latin Vulgate) meaning “Who Is Like God?” Idiot.

They existed long before earth was created: Job 38:4-7

The seventh day of rest: (Genesis 2:1-3; Isaiah 40:28; John 5:17; Hebrews 3:16-4:11)

Don't let the traditions of scholars distract you.

Quoting Genesis is nothing but circular bullshit. Genesis is the CLAIM, not the evidence. 
All you can do is Babble quotes. You FAIL to understand the very basics. 
You know nothing about ancient cultures and where they came from. Idiot.
There is not ONE scholar or anyone other than you, fool, that claims Michael is Jesus.
LMAO
Every day we get more pure bullshit from this fool.

This becomes more humorous with every post he makes.
He's worse than Drisch.
He is clearly mentally deranged.

(September 16, 2023 at 12:03 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 11:47 am)GrandizerII Wrote: Where in the Bible does it say Michael is Jesus? Are you a JW, by the way?

W. E. Vine - the "voice of the archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ" - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 64.

By making Christ an angel you subject him to human judgment, rather than the other way around.

1 Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

And that's fine, I have a few things to say about his diagnosis of neurological disorders (Demons?  Seriously?).

(September 16, 2023 at 11:01 am)LinuxGal Wrote: Help a girl out.  Show me in scripture where the devil ever lied.

Is this something new? The name itself, devil, for one thing. that's what the word means. Common sense isn't always an oxymoron.

(September 16, 2023 at 11:01 am)LinuxGal Wrote: I can't find anywhere in scripture where Satan actually sinned.

And you know what sin means? How would I, for example, sin against you?

(September 16, 2023 at 11:01 am)LinuxGal Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out when and where Satan actually brought sin.  Nebuchadnezzar had a strong army but he offered salvation to the Judahites for the price of tribute and the Judahites canceled their salvation subscription.  Jesus saw that operation and wanted to do the same thing, but without even putting together an army.  His solution was to offer salvation from what he would do to you in the afterlife.

Bucky?

Satan brought sin by deceiving Eve. 1 Timothy 2:14.

ETAh, and what would Jesus do to you in the afterlife, according to your self loathing traditional ideology?

And John 8:44

(September 16, 2023 at 12:24 pm)Data Wrote: Satan brought sin by deceiving Eve. 1 Timothy 2:14.

God: The fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is fatal within 24 hours.  Do not eat it."

Satan: "The fruit will not kill within twenty-four hours, and moreover, it's brain food."

Eve: "Somebody is lying.  I'm going to run human trials, with Adam as a control group to rule out any sex-based differences."

Satan (more than twenty-four hours later): "What did you find out?"

Eve: "It's harmless brain food, just like you said."

Satan: "Is Adam okay?"

Eve: "He's fine.  He'll probably live to be more than nine hundred."