(September 16, 2023 at 1:40 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If Adam had no knowledge of what is good and what is bad, how could he have known it was bad to disobey God? And if he was immortal prior to eating the fruit, how could he have possibly comprehended the notion of death? Adam and Eve were punished for something they couldn’t possibly have known was wrong. What a horrible story.

What is knowledge? Something gained through experience, instruction or study. Older translations of Genesis 19:5 say the Sodomites wanted to get to know the men that were angels, newer translations say have sex with. Sex is an intimate knowledge. An experience of intimacy. That's why for a long time people thought the tree represented sex. Which of course it didn't because they were to fill the earth. Neither God nor Adam knew - had an intimate experience - with bad. God still hasn't. Of course good and bad are subjective terms, right?

How could Adam have known it was bad to disobey God? Because God told him. Instruction. Now you are Adam and you can get to know the same thing by study. You see?

Don't argue with me for ideology argue with me for knowledge. That's what I'm doing.

How could Adam know what death was. Animals. They weren't created in the image of God and were mortal.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:10 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 1:40 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If Adam had no knowledge of what is good and what is bad, how could he have known it was bad to disobey God? And if he was immortal prior to eating the fruit, how could he have possibly comprehended the notion of death? Adam and Eve were punished for something they couldn’t possibly have known was wrong. What a horrible story.

What is knowledge? Something gained through experience, instruction or study. Older translations of Genesis 19:5 say the Sodomites wanted to get to know the men that were angels, newer translations say have sex with. Sex is an intimate knowledge. An experience of intimacy. That's why for a long time people thought the tree represented sex. Which of course it didn't because they were to fill the earth. Neither God nor Adam knew - had an intimate experience - with bad. God still hasn't. Of course good and bad are subjective terms, right?

How could Adam have known it was bad to disobey God? Because God told him. Instruction. Now you are Adam and you can get to know the same thing by study. You see?

Don't argue with me for ideology argue with me for knowledge. That's what I'm doing.

How could Adam know what death was. Animals. They weren't created in the image of God and were mortal.

You cannot explain a concept to a person who has neither the comprehension nor the ability to understand it. If a German parent tells his German child in German, ‘Don’t touch that, it’s hot’, there isn’t an issue. If he tells that same child the same thing in Mandarin, the child is likely to get burned. God may as well have been speaking been speaking Martian when he told Adam, ‘Don’t eat that.’

Every single instance in the Bible where one person is said to ‘know’ another, context makes it abundantly clear that ‘know’ means ‘fuck’.

Adam could not possibly have grasp that animals snuffing it was something that applied to him.

You’re not getting any better at this.

Boru

(September 16, 2023 at 1:26 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 12:47 pm)GrandizerII Wrote: Paul took Jesus to be a divine figure, albeit literally begotten. But even in Paul's writings, I'm not seeing any connection to Michael. You say Jesus = Michael with such confidence, as if it's obviously very true. Where are you getting this confidence from?

Why would you not respond to the post I made in response to your original doubt about the Michael subject? Seems odd to me.

I did respond to that one. Go back a page or two.

Quote:Anyway, what exactly does it mean that Paul took Jesus to be a divine figure. Elsewhere I referred to Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 8:5; 82:1, 6; John 10:34-35. So, a divine figure a god. Godlike, sons of god, etc. Correct?

A god or god-like being. Something of that sort. No need to consult verses from other books.

Quote:Why am I confident?

To be very clear, the question is why are you confident that Michael is Jesus. Let's see your following points.

Quote:1. Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth. Proverbs 8:22; John 1:1,3, 14; 3:13; 8:23, 58; 17:5; Colossians 1:15-17; 1 John 2:13; Revelation 3:14 all speak of Jesus’ existence before the world began, in fact before anything was created Jesus was created. Before Heaven, the heavens, the Earth, and of course, man. He is the firstborn of creation, the beginning of creation, he came from somewhere other than this world, he descended from heaven. There can be no doubt that he had a pre-human existence in heaven before he came to Earth as the man Jesus Christ.

Ok, I'm guessing you're setting up all the required premises first before you get to Jesus = Michael. All good and dandy so far, except OT verses like Proverbs 8 don't talk about Jesus at all. Proverbs 8, in fact, is a poetic passage about God's wisdom, something that is abstract. So put that aside, and just focus on the NT verses.

Quote:2. Jesus’ position in heaven before he came to the earth must have been an important one, considering he was the first of Jehovah’s creation and all things were created through him and for him. (Proverbs 8:22; John 1:3) That means not only the heavens and earth as we know them but the angels and heaven as well. Jesus is referred to as the "word of God," this means he is the spokesperson. (John 1:1) As the spokesperson for Jehovah God we can assume that when an angel performed some important task on earth, like guiding and protecting the early Israelites from Egypt or taking the physical form of men in performing an important task, it was likely Michael as he existed before he came to earth as Jesus.

Please don't just assert it was Michael or likely Michael. Show the passages that support that specific detail please.

Quote:3. The term archangel means chief of the angels. Arch means chief or principal. The term is only applied to one angel in the Bible. Michael. It is always used in the singular. There is only one archangel. The term archangel itself only appears twice throughout Scripture. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul writes of Jesus as having the voice of the archangel, and Jude 9 indicates Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. So there is a connection with Jesus as well as an indication that Michael was connected in some way with the people of the exodus of Egypt.

Paul didn't say anything about Michael in that verse, and Jude 1:9 sounds like fanfiction and wasn't written by Paul anyway. So you can't just reason based on the detail you've provided that Michael is the archangel that Paul is speaking of. Nor does Paul equate Jesus to the archangel in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, if you pay close attention to the wording.

Quote:4. Other than Jehovah God himself only two people in the Bible are said to be in charge of or over the angels. They are Michael and Jesus Christ. The name Michael appears only five times throughout Scripture. At Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7.

Have you ever wondered why Revelation did not just say straight out that Michael is Jesus? Seems to me like Michael is meant to be a separate entity from Jesus. And anyway, just because various verses in some of the books of the Bible mention Michael as this significant warrior angel doesn't mean that therefore Jesus is Michael.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: You cannot explain a concept to a person who has neither the comprehension nor the ability to understand it. If a German parent tells his German child in German, ‘Don’t touch that, it’s hot’, there isn’t an issue. If he tells that same child the same thing in Mandarin, the child is likely to get burned. God may as well have been speaking been speaking Martian when he told Adam, ‘Don’t eat that.’

God didn't speak in Mandarin. Even Eve, who was deceived, understood the concept as she explained it to Satan.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Every single instance in the Bible where one person is said to ‘know’ another, context makes it abundantly clear that ‘know’ means ‘fuck’.

No it doesn't. That's stupid. Knowledge leads to everlasting life in paradise, it's more valuable than gold. Knowledge is what God wanted us to have. Just as the angels had. They have become like us, knowing good and bad. Fuck literally means to throw down seed. Jesus and the writers of the Christian Greek scriptures used a Greek word, katabole, which literally means to throw down seed. They used it for founding of the world. Idiot scholars often take that to mean creation, but it doesn't, it means the system. Political, social, commercial, etc. The world was founded upon the blood of Abel and the prophets. The world, not the earth, will be destroyed. Satan is the God of the world. It was created when Adam and Eve first conceived. Paul also uses it in reference to Abraham and Sarah conceiving their first child.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Adam could not possibly have grasp that animals snuffing it was something that applied to him.

Why not?

(September 16, 2023 at 2:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: You’re not getting any better at this.

Probably getting worse, but how could I know that when you only warn me in Mandarin.

There is no evidence that any living creature was immortal. Not one shred.
There were millions of years of animal life before any humans evolved.
None of the precursor species to the first humans were immortal.
Humans did not suddenly evolve immortality.
In fact the god in Genesis specifically says the immortality of Adam was looked on as something the god DID NOT WANT.

As far as the god in the Genesis myth goes, that god (as opposed to what the fool in this thread claims,)
that god SAYS in Genesis it DID experience evil.

Genesis 3:22-23 "Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever, therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken."

Data never even read the Bible.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:38 pm)GrandizerII Wrote: I did respond to that one. Go back a page or two.

I'm sorry, I just don't have the time. I have pages and pages of alerts to go through. I can't get them all. I wish I could. I've missed a lot.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:21 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: A god or god-like being. Something of that sort. No need to consult verses from other books.

That will work for me as long as you don't make the common error that a god has to be anything other than venerated. Eric Clapton, Kim Jong-Un, Satan, Moses, anything or anyone venerated. Doesn't have to be supernatural, immortal, or creator.

Whoever Proverbs 8:22 is referring to they existed before some portion of God's creation. His works of old, so we will see in the Greek scriptures. It's not a NT.

There is no passage that says "Hey stupid, Jesus is Michael, didn't you know?" If that's what you're looking for. For what it's worth I've shown you the scholarly consensus. Proverbs and John show that Jesus, in some form, obviously not physical because he was only 33 when he died, existed before all things were created. Angles come here in human form. Who was Jesus in heaven?

How many angels can you name? Satan, Gabriel and Michael. Jesus is likely one of those. Who has the voice of an archangel? An archangel. Jesus has the voice of the archangel. Duh. Paul didn't say anything about Michael in that verse, and Jude 1:9 sounds like fanfiction and wasn't written by Paul anyway. So you can't just reason based on the detail you've provided that Michael is the archangel that Paul is speaking of. Nor does Paul equate Jesus to the archangel in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, if you pay close attention to the wording.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:38 pm)GrandizerII Wrote: Have you ever wondered why Revelation did not just say straight out that Michael is Jesus? Seems to me like Michael is meant to be a separate entity from Jesus. And anyway, just because various verses in some of the books of the Bible mention Michael as this significant warrior angel doesn't mean that therefore Jesus is Michael.

Seems to you? Okay. It doesn't seem to me. You a former Christian?

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: There is no evidence that any living creature was immortal. Not one shred.

Never said there was.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: There were millions of years of animal life before any humans evolved.

You don't know that, but if that were the case it would work for my argument.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Humans did not suddenly evolve immortality.

I didn't say they did.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: In fact the god in Genesis specifically says the immortality of Adam was looked on as something the god DID NOT WANT.

Death was an option. Not the preferred one.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: As far as the god in the Genesis myth goes, that god (as opposed to what the fool in this thread claims,)
that god SAYS in Genesis it DID experience evil.

Genesis 3:22-23  "Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever, therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken."

I explain this in another post. I'm sure you've read it by now. Stop wasting my time or I will ignore you. You're interfering with the other students.

(September 16, 2023 at 1:13 pm)Data Wrote: Oh, [laughs] this is rich! How you do take creative liberties with your ideological fixations! Let me fix it. 

God: If you touch or eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of what is good and what is bad you will immediately begin to die.  

begin to die.

What bible has those two words “begin to” Data?

knowledge of what is good and what is bad

Data, did A&E know if dying was a good thing or bad bad before eating the fruit?



Data, are Adam and Eve in hell or heaven?

(September 16, 2023 at 3:15 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: There is no evidence that any living creature was immortal. Not one shred.

Never said there was.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: There were millions of years of animal life before any humans evolved.

You don't know that, but if that were the case it would work for my argument.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: Humans did not suddenly evolve immortality.

I didn't say they did.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: In fact the god in Genesis specifically says the immortality of Adam was looked on as something the god DID NOT WANT.

Death was an option. Not the preferred one.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:46 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: As far as the god in the Genesis myth goes, that god (as opposed to what the fool in this thread claims,)
that god SAYS in Genesis it DID experience evil.

Genesis 3:22-23  "Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever, therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken."

I explain this in another post. I'm sure you've read it by now. Stop wasting my time or I will ignore you. You're interfering with the other students.

You're not the teacher. You're the fool here. 
I will respond to whatever I do. You have no education in these matters and no education in ancient cultures, as we have al seen. 
The "others" are not you students. No one agrees here with even one thing you say. 
You have not one convert. 

Now dear, be sure you get your blankey and take your nap after you have your bottle. 

Show us your evidence that "death was an option". 
Unfortunately for you, ignoramus, there is a lot of evidence for millions of years of life before the Genesis MYTH. 
The fact you don't know what it is, just proves your ignorant state.

The fact that you think you are a teacher and anyone a student pretty much proves how dreanged and mentally ill you are.
Get help.

(September 16, 2023 at 2:10 pm)Data Wrote: How could Adam know what death was. Animals. They weren't created in the image of God and were mortal.

There was a tree of life that gave immortality.  If Adam and Eve were created immortal, a tree of life was like balls on a priest.  As soon as they were made mortal, God had five seconds to get them out of the garden lest they ate from it.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever...

Therefore Adam and Eve were NOT created immortal, they were naturally mortal, and the tree of life was for maintenance.

This is known as argumentum ad absurdam.  And the Bible has plenty of such absurdities.