(September 16, 2023 at 12:23 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 12:03 pm)Data Wrote: W. E. Vine - the "voice of the archangel" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) is apparently "the voice of the Lord Jesus Christ" - An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 64.

By making Christ an angel you subject him to human judgment, rather than the other way around.

1 Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

And that's fine, I have a few things to say about his diagnosis of neurological disorders (Demons?  Seriously?).

I don't know what you're talking about, it doesn't make any sense to me, at best it's anacdotal, not that that's bad if you had some logical excursion directing you hither. Anyway, I don't care about that. 

Christ wasn't an angel in a definitive sense. Angel means messenger. Sometimes it is used for humans by being translated in those cases as simply messenger, but with spirit creatures it's translated angel. Messengers of God. Sent by Jehovah. So, the angels forsook their original position, as angels, spirit creatures, and became men who mated with humans females producing the Nephilim. Angels take on the form of men to serve as messengers - to more easily and effectively communicate with humans. So they are angels in the form of men. Angels and men. 

Jesus, as Michael, had come here many times as the chief angel, the primary spokesperson or word of God. Hanging out with Adam and Eve, with Lot, (yes two not three like I said earlier. I don't know what the hell I was thinking there), wrestling with Jacob etc. Leading the Israelites out of Egypt. But in the case of Jesus, he was born a man. He came to earth from heaven as a spirit being to become a man in the womb. So, he had been an angel but then he was a man. Had to sacrifice his flesh and blood.

(September 16, 2023 at 12:24 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 11:01 am)LinuxGal Wrote: Help a girl out.  Show me in scripture where the devil ever lied.

Is this something new? The name itself, devil, for one thing. that's what the word means. Common sense isn't always an oxymoron.

(September 16, 2023 at 11:01 am)LinuxGal Wrote: I can't find anywhere in scripture where Satan actually sinned.

And you know what sin means? How would I, for example, sin against you?

(September 16, 2023 at 11:01 am)LinuxGal Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out when and where Satan actually brought sin.  Nebuchadnezzar had a strong army but he offered salvation to the Judahites for the price of tribute and the Judahites canceled their salvation subscription.  Jesus saw that operation and wanted to do the same thing, but without even putting together an army.  His solution was to offer salvation from what he would do to you in the afterlife.

Bucky?

Satan brought sin by deceiving Eve. 1 Timothy 2:14.

ETAh, and what would Jesus do to you in the afterlife, according to your self loathing traditional ideology?

And John 8:44

We know dear. That's nice. Now run along outside and play. Did you forget your pills today ?

So he claims, with no evidence. 
Babble quotes are evidence of nothing. 
No one here accepts the authority of the Babble. 
He is so fucking stupid, he don't even get that we DO NOT accept the one thing he bases everything on,  as authoritative. 

In 1952, a team was set in place by the world-famous, preeminent scholar, archaeologist and pioneer discoverer of Holy Land historical sites and documents, Dr. William Foxwell Albright, the professor of Semitic languages at the Johns Hopkins University. Their job was to write criticisms and scholarly work concerning all biblical texts. The team was composed of the most respected biblical scholars in the US and Europe, including Dr. John W. Bailey, Professor Emeritus, New Testament, Berkley Baptist Divinity School, Dr Albert E. Barnett, Professor Candler School of Theology, Emory University, Dr. Walter Russell Bowel, Professor, The Protestant Episcopal Seminary, Virginia, Dr. John Bright, Professor, Union Seminary and many others.

The team of 124 clergymen and scholars came mostly from conservative, mainline universities and churches for the most part, the likes of whom will never be seen again in one place, whose names evoke the utmost and deepest respect, even if one completely disagrees with their religious views. They wrote the huge 13 volume set, now considered a valuable rare book, called "The Interpreters Bible". Today it is usually kept under lock and key in seminaries and libraries. This set includes an introduction to scholarship and looks at every single verse and word in the Bible, discusses their origins and possible meanings from various points of view. It has been updated in the 1990's, but the original scholarship is still the central fundamental summary of knowledge, which summarized scholarship from the Medieval period (1850's -1950's) and is therefore considered to be an interesting historical snapshot. It is also an assurance that these absolutely respected leading intellectuals from the 20th Century scholarship, of whom most were religious, have agreed to have each other's names associated with their own and that they felt comfortable with what each other were saying in an academic setting and commanded world-wide respect as conservative, careful, and sincere, life-long teachers, academics and scholars. 

On page 15 of "The Interpreters Bible", Dr. Herbert F. Farmer, Professor of Divinity at Cambridge University wrote about the indispensability of the texts, their importance and how the "truth" of them should be approached, after an exposition of the traditional conservative Christian view of person-hood, sin and the salvific actions of Jesus (aka Yeshua ben Josef), known as "the Christ" in human history.

"The reason has to do with the evidence afforded by the texts themselves, and calls for fuller treatment. Scholarly research into the texts themselves, has convincingly shown that they cannot be accepted in detail as they stand."

It's fun to make shit up. Yet, imaginative theological fiction is a low form of entertainment.

(September 16, 2023 at 12:41 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 12:23 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: By making Christ an angel you subject him to human judgment, rather than the other way around.

1 Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

I don't know what you're talking about, it doesn't make any sense to me

Then you'll probably fit in well in an atheist forum, where such complaints against the Bible are frequently heard.

(September 16, 2023 at 12:41 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 12:23 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: By making Christ an angel you subject him to human judgment, rather than the other way around.

1 Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

And that's fine, I have a few things to say about his diagnosis of neurological disorders (Demons?  Seriously?).

I don't know what you're talking about, it doesn't make any sense to me, at best it's anacdotal, not that that's bad if you had some logical excursion directing you hither. Anyway, I don't care about that. 

Christ wasn't an angel in a definitive sense. Angel means messenger. Sometimes it is used for humans by being translated in those cases as simply messenger, but with spirit creatures it's translated angel. Messengers of God. Sent by Jehovah. So, the angels forsook their original position, as angels, spirit creatures, and became men who mated with humans females producing the Nephilim. Angels take on the form of men to serve as messengers - to more easily and effectively communicate with humans. So they are angels in the form of men. Angels and men. 

Jesus, as Michael, had come here many times as the chief angel, the primary spokesperson or word of God. Hanging out with Adam and Eve, with Lot, (yes two not three like I said earlier. I don't know what the hell I was thinking there), wrestling with Jacob etc. Leading the Israelites out of Egypt. But in the case of Jesus, he was born a man. He came to earth from heaven as a spirit being to become a man in the womb. So, he had been an angel but then he was a man. Had to sacrifice his flesh and blood.

Paul took Jesus to be a divine figure, albeit literally begotten. But even in Paul's writings, I'm not seeing any connection to Michael. You say Jesus = Michael with such confidence, as if it's obviously very true. Where are you getting this confidence from?

(September 16, 2023 at 12:41 pm)Data Wrote: Jesus, as Michael, had come here many times as the chief angel, the primary spokesperson or word of God. Hanging out with Adam and Eve, with Lot, (yes two not three like I said earlier. I don't know what the hell I was thinking there), wrestling with Jacob etc. Leading the Israelites out of Egypt.

1. The messenger who spoke with Daniel said he was getting his ass kicked by the Persians until Michael lent a hand:

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

2. The same messenger made a prediction about Michael:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people...

3. I already mentioned that Michael and Satan dickered over the body of Moses.

4. John of Patmos made a prediction that Michael would prevail in a war in heaven and cause Satan to be cast down.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

That's it.  Four references. As for Michael dealing with Adam and Eve and Lot and Moses, that's just, like, your opinion man.

(September 16, 2023 at 12:33 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 12:24 pm)Data Wrote: Satan brought sin by deceiving Eve. 1 Timothy 2:14.

God: The fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is fatal within 24 hours.  Do not eat it."

Satan: "The fruit will not kill within twenty-four hours, and moreover, it's brain food."

Eve: "Somebody is lying.  I'm going to run human trials, with Adam as a control group to rule out any sex-based differences."

Satan (more than twenty-four hours later): "What did you find out?"

Eve: "It's harmless brain food, just like you said."

Satan: "Is Adam okay?"

Eve: "He's fine.  He'll probably live to be more than nine hundred."

Oh, [laughs] this is rich! How you do take creative liberties with your ideological fixations! Let me fix it. 

God: If you touch or eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of what is good and what is bad you will immediately begin to die. Otherwise you will live forever to fill and subdue the earth. You see, Adam, the tree represents my rightful sovereignty as creator - to decide for you what is good and bad until you learn to do so yourselves, like the angels. I'm the Father. 

Satan as a serpent to Eve: God just doesn't want you to have the knowledge of what is good and bad. He's withholding it from you. You will not die. 

Eve: Maybe that's true. "Hey Adam, try this, it's not bad."

Adam: Nothing is bad. All of God's creation is good. What could be bad? How could God know what is bad if such a thing doesn't exist? If I take that fruit then I will be deciding for myself what is good and what is bad. If I don't take it Eve will die and I will live forever alone. Let's have it. That tastes pretty good, what is that pomegranate?  

Eve: I don't know but it looks cool - say, why are we naked? If only we could run human trials . . . but we need a control group. Some sort of messiah. A figurative bride of God. 

Adam: You mean me as a control group to rule out any sex-based differences? That wouldn't work since we and our ancestors are all in the treatment group. Besides, we were both created in God's image. Male and female. Maybe you're just jealous because I was here first and have seniority. You just want to be the boss which is why that snake tricked you. Do you think I like being the boss? I'm not the boss of everything and now I'm going to die. It's your fault. It's God's fault. 

Satan (thousands of years after Adam and Eve died): Just like I planned. Now I've got to get rid of this Messiah. He may have been the archangel, the boss of us all in heaven, but now he's a puny man on earth. Like Adam. This should be easy. They're so dumb. What can I tempt him with . . . well, I've got all of these governments. Past, present and future. If he can pull this thing off all of that will be lost - let's just offer those up to him. They've been useful to me, why wouldn't he want them?

The footnote on Genesis 2:17, in The Jerusalem Bible (1966): “This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride.”

(September 16, 2023 at 12:47 pm)GrandizerII Wrote: Paul took Jesus to be a divine figure, albeit literally begotten. But even in Paul's writings, I'm not seeing any connection to Michael. You say Jesus = Michael with such confidence, as if it's obviously very true. Where are you getting this confidence from?

Why would you not respond to the post I made in response to your original doubt about the Michael subject? Seems odd to me. Anyway, what exactly does it mean that Paul took Jesus to be a divine figure. Elsewhere I referred to Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 8:5; 82:1, 6; John 10:34-35. So, a divine figure a god. Godlike, sons of god, etc. Correct?

Why am I confident?

1. Jesus existed in heaven before he came to earth. Proverbs 8:22; John 1:1,3, 14; 3:13; 8:23, 58; 17:5; Colossians 1:15-17; 1 John 2:13; Revelation 3:14 all speak of Jesus’ existence before the world began, in fact before anything was created Jesus was created. Before Heaven, the heavens, the Earth, and of course, man. He is the firstborn of creation, the beginning of creation, he came from somewhere other than this world, he descended from heaven. There can be no doubt that he had a pre-human existence in heaven before he came to Earth as the man Jesus Christ.

2. Jesus’ position in heaven before he came to the earth must have been an important one, considering he was the first of Jehovah’s creation and all things were created through him and for him. (Proverbs 8:22; John 1:3) That means not only the heavens and earth as we know them but the angels and heaven as well. Jesus is referred to as the "word of God," this means he is the spokesperson. (John 1:1) As the spokesperson for Jehovah God we can assume that when an angel performed some important task on earth, like guiding and protecting the early Israelites from Egypt or taking the physical form of men in performing an important task, it was likely Michael as he existed before he came to earth as Jesus.

3. The term archangel means chief of the angels. Arch means chief or principal. The term is only applied to one angel in the Bible. Michael. It is always used in the singular. There is only one archangel. The term archangel itself only appears twice throughout Scripture. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Paul writes of Jesus as having the voice of the archangel, and Jude 9 indicates Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. So there is a connection with Jesus as well as an indication that Michael was connected in some way with the people of the exodus of Egypt.

4. Other than Jehovah God himself only two people in the Bible are said to be in charge of or over the angels. They are Michael and Jesus Christ. The name Michael appears only five times throughout Scripture. At Daniel 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 9 and Revelation 12:7.

Run that numbered bit through for plagiarism, Mr. Ball, while you're supposed to be working.

(September 16, 2023 at 1:13 pm)Data Wrote:

(September 16, 2023 at 12:33 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: God: The fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is fatal within 24 hours.  Do not eat it."

Satan: "The fruit will not kill within twenty-four hours, and moreover, it's brain food."

Eve: "Somebody is lying.  I'm going to run human trials, with Adam as a control group to rule out any sex-based differences."

Satan (more than twenty-four hours later): "What did you find out?"

Eve: "It's harmless brain food, just like you said."

Satan: "Is Adam okay?"

Eve: "He's fine.  He'll probably live to be more than nine hundred."

Oh, [laughs] this is rich! How you do take creative liberties with your ideological fixations! Let me fix it. 

God: If you touch or eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of what is good and what is bad you will immediately begin to die. Otherwise you will live forever to fill and subdue the earth. You see, Adam, the tree represents my rightful sovereignty as creator - to decide for you what is good and bad until you learn to do so yourselves, like the angels. I'm the Father. 

Satan as a serpent to Eve: God just doesn't want you to have the knowledge of what is good and bad. He's withholding it from you. You will not die. 

Eve: Maybe that's true. "Hey Adam, try this, it's not bad."

Adam: Nothing is bad. All of God's creation is good. What could be bad? How could God know what is bad if such a thing doesn't exist? If I take that fruit then I will be deciding for myself what is good and what is bad. If I don't take it Eve will die and I will live forever alone. Let's have it. That tastes pretty good, what is that pomegranate?  

Eve: I don't know but it looks cool - say, why are we naked? If only we could run human trials . . . but we need a control group. Some sort of messiah. A figurative bride of God. 

Adam: You mean me as a control group to rule out any sex-based differences? That wouldn't work since we and our ancestors are all in the treatment group. Besides, we were both created in God's image. Male and female. Maybe you're just jealous because I was here first and have seniority. You just want to be the boss which is why that snake tricked you. Do you think I like being the boss? I'm not the boss of everything and now I'm going to die. It's your fault. It's God's fault. 

Satan (thousands of years after Adam and Eve died): Just like I planned. Now I've got to get rid of this Messiah. He may have been the archangel, the boss of us all in heaven, but now he's a puny man on earth. Like Adam. This should be easy. They're so dumb. What can I tempt him with . . . well, I've got all of these governments. Past, present and future. If he can pull this thing off all of that will be lost - let's just offer those up to him. They've been useful to me, why wouldn't he want them?

The footnote on Genesis 2:17, in The Jerusalem Bible (1966): “This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride.”

If Adam had no knowledge of what is good and what is bad, how could he have known it was bad to disobey God? And if he was immortal prior to eating the fruit, how could he have possibly comprehended the notion of death? Adam and Eve were punished for something they couldn’t possibly have known was wrong. What a horrible story.

You’re really not very good at this sort of thing.

Boru

(September 16, 2023 at 12:58 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: 1. The messenger who spoke with Daniel said he was getting his ass kicked by the Persians until Michael lent a hand:

So? And . . .

(September 16, 2023 at 12:58 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: 2. The same messenger made a prediction about Michael:

So? And . . .

(September 16, 2023 at 12:58 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: 3. I already mentioned that Michael and Satan dickered over the body of Moses.

And it doesn't make sense, does it? You conclude the use of the word Lord does what? I think your problem is that you don't know what god and lord really mean. God means venerated lord means having authority, sometimes but not always granted by someone else. Godfather, landlord. I've listed most of the notable figures in the Bible that are called gods. Moses, Jesus, Satan, Jehovah, judges, angels, Baal, Dagon etc.

(September 16, 2023 at 12:58 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: 4. John of Patmos made a prediction that Michael would prevail in a war in heaven and cause Satan to be cast down.

So? And . . .

(September 16, 2023 at 12:58 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: That's it.  Four references. As for Michael dealing with Adam and Eve and Lot and Moses, that's just, like, your opinion man.

You haven't said anything. Am I just not seeing something you would ascribe to tradition? I don't care about the tradition unless it is relevant to scripture not the other way around. You're not conveying to me what your point is because I can't see it through your traditional presuppositions. Say what you mean in your own words. So you have four references. What do they mean? They have to fit the Bible, not theology. My opinion fits. I don't know if yours does because I don't know what it is. I don't ask you to think for yourself for your own benefit, you know. I don't give a fuck about any of you. Think for yourselves for me. So I can at least try to understand what the hell you're talking about without having to take a class on stupid that I could get at the public library or Google's woke ass.