(November 22, 2023 at 1:19 pm)ColeDavis Wrote: Your responses work in only way, to your own advantage. That intellectual dishonesty is the sign of a bigot, albeit ones of some sophistication.

Not picking a side here, but can you point out which of your own responses have worked to your disadvantage?

(November 22, 2023 at 12:59 pm)ColeDavis Wrote: work jointly on an activity, especially to produce or create something.

"he collaborated with a distinguished painter on the designs"

This is one dictionary definition. You know perfectly well that it is not the apt one for this conversation.

If you’re implying that my criticism of Israel amounts to collaboration with Hamas, you are perfectly welcome to go fuck yourself.

Boru

unsubscribing from this thread

When I joined this forum I assumed reasonable intelligence and integrity, as the likely hallmarks of an atheist. I can admit that in this respect I was wrong.

(November 23, 2023 at 10:54 am)ColeDavis Wrote: unsubscribing from this thread

When I joined this forum I assumed reasonable intelligence and integrity, as the likely hallmarks of an atheist. I can admit that in this respect I was wrong.

When I joined this thread, I assumed that people understood the meaning of terms like  ‘anti-Semitic’ and ‘bigotry’. We all make mistakes, I suppose.

Boru

Quote:unsubscribing from this thread

When I joined this forum I assumed reasonable intelligence and integrity, as the likely hallmarks of an atheist. I can admit that in this respect I was wrong.

Considering so far all you have done is throw around baseless accusations about people motives and have called anyone who disagrees with you a bigot or anti-Semitic and you have avoided a simply and frankly reasonable question asked by Mister Agenda. I ask who has come from this discussion looking unreasonable and lacking in integrity ? 

(November 23, 2023 at 10:54 am)ColeDavis Wrote: unsubscribing from this thread

When I joined this forum I assumed reasonable intelligence and integrity, as the likely hallmarks of an atheist. I can admit that in this respect I was wrong.

Not an airport.  Departures need not be announced.  Especially when paired with snarky remarks about the other passengers.

(November 23, 2023 at 10:54 am)ColeDavis Wrote: unsubscribing from this thread

When I joined this forum I assumed reasonable intelligence and integrity, as the likely hallmarks of an atheist. I can admit that in this respect I was wrong.

Well, at least you found a way to feel superior.

(November 23, 2023 at 11:05 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 23, 2023 at 10:54 am)ColeDavis Wrote: unsubscribing from this thread

When I joined this forum I assumed reasonable intelligence and integrity, as the likely hallmarks of an atheist. I can admit that in this respect I was wrong.

When I joined this thread, I assumed that people understood the meaning of terms like  ‘anti-Semitic’ and ‘bigotry’. We all make mistakes, I suppose.

Boru

Never assume intelligence. You'll be disappointed far too often.

(November 23, 2023 at 10:54 am)ColeDavis Wrote: unsubscribing from this thread

When I joined this forum I assumed reasonable intelligence and integrity, as the likely hallmarks of an atheist. I can admit that in this respect I was wrong.

your conduct here shows you couldn’t possibly have enough experience with intelligence and integrity in your narrow self righteous world to recognize either when looking straight at it.

(November 21, 2023 at 9:37 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 17, 2023 at 5:52 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: We need to normalize being pissed off at Israel.

Boru

If you want to go after Bibi, I agree, I don't like him, he is corrupt. If you want to criticize the continued land grabs by their far right right wing Jews, I also agree. But I will never advocate targeting their entire population. Israelis are like Americans right now, held hostage by a minority extreme right wing party. 

Hamas are not freedom fighters, they are religious terrorists backed by Iran. Both follow the extreme interpretations of Sharia law and the Hadiths. Even if Israel did not exist Hamas would want the deaths of any infidel. Hamas does not want to protect religious or political pluralism. Hamas is hijacking Palestine the way Bibi has hijacked Israel the way Trump has hijacked America.

   I don’t think Netanyahu is a typical populist.
 

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   I think he is more of a dinosaur (I was in high school when he was the prime-minister of Israel for the first time). Besides, Israel’s military actions to dismantle Hamas infrastructure is not a lie either. Images are speaking for themselves. Here is a link on Hamas Tunnels under the Al-Shifa Hospital:
 



 
The main issue with Netanyahu may be related to him and his allies willing to take all of Palestine and turn it into Israel. That’s religious dogmatism and that’s religious extremism too. If Israel says that, the other party will want all of Israel to be dismantled and this isn’t going to work either.
 
There is a bigger picture here. The entire region is unstable. Political Islamist are either in direct positions of power and/or are close allies within the existing autocratic governments in the region.
 
And this gives Zionists an excuse to treat all Arabs as backward savages and pursue their plan of annexation in all Palestinian territories.
 
So if there is a will to deescalate (and I think this is the case because now people in the West are mobilizing and starting to see the situation exactly as it is).

1) You need to work with “stable” Arab governments like Tunisia, Morocco, Saudi Arabia + Satellites to “modernize” and become impermeable toward populist / political İslamist forces. Countries like Pakistan should be supported economically so that they are able to move toward more stable societies. Political İslam needs masses of hopeless people without a vision for the future. So let’s work with the UN and prevent that.

2) In countries with instability (Libya, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iran etc.) you need to work with China. Predatory policies aiming to compete for the control a countries resource like Oil, Natural Gas and other minerals should be abandoned (at least for this very sensitive region). Less predatory and more constructive approaches that are carried out in synchronization with Beijing can lead to the gradual transformation of these countries. Meaning: the CIA + the Mossad should not …ck these countries up anymore. Only secular / constructive, job creating parties who really care for their people should be supported and dealed with. / And Israel should work with these parties to create stability in these countries (not the opposite).

3) All the settlers must return to Israel and the Palestinian territories should be left alone. If there are security issues, Blue Helmets or the military of other Arab nations should move in to prevent the operations of radical terrorist groups.
 
And on Zionism: It’s only a piece of land. There is no “Holy Land”, there is no “Chosen People” (Not in a spiritual perspective). The main issue is for Jews to have a state in which they will be secure. That should be the main goal here. Not some “Command and Conquer 2” Style geographic domination project.
 

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And this could be the main problem with Netanyahu. A more left-wing Israeli government backed by a Democrat governed or Non-Trumpist Republican Party governed US could do these things and I don’t see any other solution to this problem.

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(November 21, 2023 at 1:57 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Israel has never been shy about tying criticism of the state’s political and military actions to antisemitism as a way of delegitimizing any criticism of the jewish state or its policies,    nor had it ever been shy about skating right to the edge, and often over the edge, of implied such deflection to be  a uniquely jewish privilege earned by jewish people’s historic suffering,  even when the criticism pertains to israel’s policies towards people who did not play the big parts in jewish people’s historic suffering.

I still believe they should consider themselves lucky for being able to restore at least some part of their land some 2000 after it was completely destroyed by the Romans.

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If you are not a believer in some conspiracy theories, than you would have to acknowledge how lucky they are.
 
Look at Armenians for instance. This used to be how big they were and they had many settlements in the Western parts of Anatolia as late as the early 20th century (We have several places near the Capital Ankara here that used to be Armenian settlements with Churches with beautyfull reliefs and/or wall paintings, old Stone-built houses, very large vineyards, wine production sites etc.). Now they are confined to a country half the size of Georgia. As I said: this isn’t “Command and Conquer II” and/or Sid Meier’s Civilization here. There are real people inhabiting these real pieces of land. So we all have to be realistic on this:

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(November 22, 2023 at 11:59 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 22, 2023 at 11:11 am)ColeDavis Wrote: You clearly don't know what you are talking about. Just listen to the ranting and lying of Israel's neighbours and tell me that they are not antisemitic. Oh yes, and read some history, and then compare it with said neighbours' accounts. Also, your logic suggests that Israel should be spending its time having 'policies' towards Germans, Poles etc; must see what ought to be done about the Babylonians (as if Boney M wasn't enough).

That’s not what he said. The point is that even though there is real, repugnant, and dangerous anti-Semitism in the world, Israel has a habit of labeling any criticism of its governmental policies as being anti-Semitic, even when it’s not.

Boru

- There are so many conspiracy theories. Middle-Easterners are for the most part uneducated and easy to impress. The conspiracy theories of Political Islamists on Jews are very similar to the conspiracy theories of White-Supremacists / Neo-Nazis etc.

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And real facts (like unconditional support from some Western Nations) are sort of reinforcing these conspiracy theories.
 
So there has to be more communication and perhaps less “unconditional support” to Israel.
 
Also: People should stop to treat that region as some oil and gas producing colonized region with authoritarian rulers who are allowed to do whatever they want as long as they keep providing the West with whatever resources they first came here to get.
 
Imperial policies are creating poverty and hopelessness. Poor and desperate people will try to

1) Migrate to another country.

2) Join a radical organization to do completely radical things.
 
/A new political approach is needed 
 
And back to the subject: The issue of minorities in Europe is also very complicated. Many people with migration background are feeling rejected by society and unable to become like “The whites” if you like. So there are projects that are designed to reach these people before the extremist terror organizations (In all European countries that I know of).
 
Yet, for many of them being “anti-Semitic” is a way of expressing their cultural identity. You know: It’s completely cool to hate Jews if you are in some place in Lebanon. In Brussels or in Berlin it’s totally uncool and it’s anti-Semitic. I know how teachers in these countries are struggling to even get these youngsters to have some form of perspective on the Palestinian issue for instance.

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It’s so deeply entrenched in their social memory. Meaning: 70 years ago Israel did kick them out of their lands with brutal force.