(December 26, 2011 at 4:07 pm)amkerman Wrote: 1. You missed the point completely

Nope. I don't miss much. It was hardly a point.

Quote:2. I didn't validate your previous post with a response bc if you had actually read my post, and then read your own, and were able to comprehend English, you would realize that your "points" did not respond to anything I said.

I don't think my English comprehension is in question here. How did my points not respond to anything you said? I broke your statement down bit by bit and destroyed it.

Aww, is this you're way of pouting? How adorable, and yet, still sad.

Quote:Claiming faith is silly and then asking rhetorically what good reason there is to have faith is a loaded question.

I realized that. Seems like you're either not used to loaded questions, or incapable of thinking of an answer.

Quote: If you arent going to be reasonable, I'm not going to respond.

I was reasonable. You just didn't like what I had to say, and perhaps you didn't no how to respond because it was too reasonable, and you couldn't.

Quote:Maybe if you take an SAT prep course you'd be able to realize the multitude of unfounded assumptions you make when you type your defensive drivel.

I'm a student at Vanderbilt University. My SAT scores were superb, I assure you.

Quote:I'm not here to converse with the willfully ignorant.

We figured you weren't here to converse with yourself, but what does that have to do with us?

Quote:"that's complete bullshit." is not an argument. The sentence following misrepresented what I said.

The sentence following explained why it was complete bullshit, and you have yet to present an argument disputing that.

Quote:Second "argument" was simply a loaded question. You were using circular reasoning.

It was simply a loaded question? Since when are loaded questions simple? If you're not going to explain how you interpreted my reasoning as circular, you should just shush.

Quote:Third point. You agreed with me then continued to add rhetoric at the end to attack me.

I don't recall agreeing with any of your short sighted, nearly incomprehensible statement. I attack ignorance whenever I have the opportunity.

Quote:Fourth point: "inane waste of words"... My thoughts exactly.

I'm glad you agree that you're argument sucked. In the future, you should really take more time thinking out your arguments.

Quote:Fitfth point: "every is born an atheist... Atheism predates consciousness... More ad nominal attacks"... Everyone is born without a working knowledge of physics, so physics isn't real...

Physics isn't indoctrinated based upon region, and your parent's preference. It fails as a suitable comparison. Try harder next time.

Quote:Really, atheism predates consciousness? So before humans were conscious they were able to form beliefs?

Atheism is not a belief. Before humans were conscious there were no beliefs, thus atheism predates consciousness.

Quote: Interesting I did not know that. You must be some kind of Rhode Scholar or something..

You learn something new every day. Thank you for the compliment, but no. I pay for college with various grants, and out of my own pocket.

Quote:* there are typos in my above post. I realize this.

A testament to your intelligence. It's okay, many of us speak 11 year old 'C' student, and are able to translate.

What are you studying?

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Good to know that inanimate objects are atheists.

Anthropology.

you do have a semblance of wit, if nothing else. Your arguing skills still leave much to be desired. You do realize that the only reason I refrain from resorting to personal attacks is moral responsibility, no?

Anyways. This is boring. I make an argument... you attack me... I respond showing you how your points are baseless... You attack me again...
I fear there is no hope talking to someone who refuses to use their brain. (I know... it's me, not you, you go to Vanderbuilt).

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Anthropology. Good stuff. The world can always use more bartenders... Kidding. Good luck in school.

(December 26, 2011 at 5:10 pm)amkerman Wrote: Anthropology. Good stuff. The world can always use more bartenders... Kidding. Good luck in school.

Well, I already have a career and a degree, silly. I go to college to learn. I'm a lifetime student.

Thanks.

(December 26, 2011 at 4:29 pm)amkerman Wrote: "you have to be indoctrinated into religion to believe in that religion"
- explain conversion of some by one religion to another.

If there was a uniform reasoning for switching religions, I would give it. The only part of this process that's the same in all cases is the exact same reasoning someone uses when they decide they like pepsi better than coke or vice versa.
That is to say - that person likes one but changed his mind or likes both and simply chose one over the other for whatever reason.

Atheism in this analogy is someone who doesn't drink soda.

I see what you're saying darkest. The point I was trying to make was that people who convert choose to do so, they are not indoctrinated. They agree that one religion conforms more to their own beliefs than another, and they make the personal choice to convert. They are not brainwashed. Not everyone who belongs to a particular religion is there because they have been taught it's the only way. They believe before they convert, not afterwards.

(December 26, 2011 at 5:28 pm)amkerman Wrote: I see what you're saying darkest. The point I was trying to make was that people who convert choose to do so, they are not indoctrinated. They agree that one religion conforms more to their own beliefs than another, and they make the personal choice to convert. They are not brainwashed. Not everyone who belongs to a particular religion is there because they have been taught it's the only way. They believe before they convert, not afterwards.

Most youths are indoctrinated in the exact same way the children in the OP's video were indoctrinated to buy things.
They're exposed at an early age and supposed "truths" are repeated ad nausium while they're unable to tell that they're being manipulated. This is done though a parent's religious practices, religious television, the bible, church, and sunday school.
It alll amounts to the same thing.

Again, I agree. Again though that is most, not all.

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If atheism were the dominant belief though, the case would be the same I think. Most of the atheists I know, and the majority on this forum I have conversed with, believe that their lack of faith stems from logic and is true. As such, I expect most atheists raise their children teaching them not to "believe in fairy tales" like "God". It's still indoctrination.

I come from a mixed faith background. My mother is catholic and my father is Jewish(he's really an atheist, Jewish is just a title). I went to church when I was a kid every Sunday. I also attended all my cousins bat/barmitzvahs and went to temple. Stopped going in highschool. Still go on Christmas and Easter with my family nowadays. I was agnostic for a few years or so in highschool do to the fact that organized religion made absolutely no sense to me. Eventually, however, through continued introspection and education I came back to the conclusion that I believe in God. The beliefs I have are much deeper than either of my parents (which isn't saying much considering my father is an atheist at heart).

Indoctrination is used on all children by their parents to teach them behavior. "don't chew w/ your mouth open", "be nice to others", "don't hit people". It is through this means that children learn. As they age, however, most of us (not all, and education is undoubtedly the biggest factor) develop a sense of self and decide what is good or bad, right or wrong, on our own. With education the effects of early indoctrination begin to lose hold.

At its heart religion offers a set of moral values to live by. As we mature we either accept or disregard those values; on our own (at least some of us, and at least in America where religious tolerance is paramount.)

Which is why I don't blame religion for anything. I don't blame ideologies. I blame people. I blame parents. I blame failure of America to educate the masses.

(kinda went off on a rant there, I forgot what my point was. I think it's that religion isn't bad, and that religion really has little to do with belief in God as it does with behavior)

(December 26, 2011 at 5:36 pm)amkerman Wrote: Again, I agree. Again though that is most, not all.

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If atheism were the dominant belief though, the case would be the same I think. Most of the atheists I know, and the majority on this forum I have conversed with, believe that their lack of faith stems from logic and is true. As such, I expect most atheists raise their children teaching them not to "believe in fairy tales" like "God". It's still indoctrination.

I come from a mixed faith background. My mother is catholic and my father is Jewish(he's really an atheist, Jewish is just a title). I went to church when I was a kid every Sunday. I also attended all my cousins bat/barmitzvahs and went to temple. Stopped going in highschool. Still go on Christmas and Easter with my family nowadays. I was agnostic for a few years or so in highschool do to the fact that organized religion made absolutely no sense to me. Eventually, however, through continued introspection and education I came back to the conclusion that I believe in God. The beliefs I have are much deeper than either of my parents (which isn't saying much considering my father is an atheist at heart).

Indoctrination is used on all children by their parents to teach them behavior. "don't chew w/ your mouth open", "be nice to others", "don't hit people". It is through this means that children learn. As they age, however, most of us (not all, and education is undoubtedly the biggest factor) develop a sense of self and decide what is good or bad, right or wrong, on our own. With education the effects of early indoctrination begin to lose hold.

At its heart religion offers a set of moral values to live by. As we mature we either accept or disregard those values; on our own (at least some of us, and at least in America where religious tolerance is paramount.)

Which is why I don't blame religion for anything. I don't blame ideologies. I blame people. I blame parents. I blame failure of America to educate the masses.

(kinda went off on a rant there, I forgot what my point was. I think it's that religion isn't bad, and that religion really has little to do with belief in God as it does with behavior)

I must ask, what sort of god do you believe in?
My opinion after much thought is that even if there is a god(which can't be proven either way) it won't be the god of the Abrahamic religions.
We live in a stunningly vast and largely incomprehensible universe, it follows that an entity responsible for creating such would therefore be similarly vast and incomprehensible.
For humanity to claim understanding of such an entity is hubris in the extreme. Yet religion claims to KNOW THE TRUTH!!!!
Bollocks, none of the religions have any more grasp of truth than anyone else. Less in fact, since science keeps showing most of their "holy" books to be wrong( great flood anyone?).
So, even if there is a god... So what?!
It will neither know or care about you, it can't.
But the people around you do, so you try to live a good life for their sakes. It's all you can do.