(July 15, 2024 at 3:58 am)soulcalm17 Wrote: Now I would ask you, Quran is exist. It is one of the phenomena of the nature in universe, as well as others. It is impossible being made by human.

This is a statement of your religious beliefs, but not a statement of fact.  It is certainly possible, regardless of whether or not you think it's true...that any piece of literature has been made by humans.

(July 15, 2024 at 3:58 am)soulcalm17 Wrote:

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So I think I would prefer to reply it separately as I think it's more comfort to me. Later topic I will quote again from your reply.
About Qur'an. 
 
It depends on you actually whether you trust or not. I just give you rational explanation that it's impossible if someone want to lie to his people but he disgraces himself with his "God's words" in front of his companions.
 
[hide]God wants people to being true happy in their life, so that He gave us the revelation that's including story in it. I actually gave a link to watch (on youtube) about the impossibilities that Quran was being made by other than God.
So, I think I will explain some that youtube's contents in here. 
 
The only rational possibilities if some text was not from God is just 4:
1.Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself
2. Muhammad (peace be upon him) used previous books
3. Muhammad (peace be upon him) used someone's helps
4. Muhammad (peace be upon him) used satan's helps (Btw, this option of course seems not makes sense for atheists. But this will answer some christian's view that satans help prophet to make Quran)
 
We go for the 1st possibility:
1.  Qur’an has been wrote by Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself
The problem:
a.   The writing/speech style
To convince this possibility, then we need to know how Muhammad (peace be upon him) usually give his formal speech to audiences. What his type of speaking. What words he chose, what style he used.
The spoken words of Muhammad were many recorded by his companion. These we called ahadist. And through reading on it, even if we doesn’t know arabic, it clearly a big difference with sayings of Muhammad himself with Quranic verses. Here is the example:
Qur’an’s quote:
…Who does more wrong than those who fabricate lies against Allah to mislead others without any knowledge? Surely Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (Al An’am 6:144)
Hadith’s quote:
…Whoever lies in my name deliberately, let his seat be prepared in hell… (Musnad Ahmad: 11711)
From the example, we know that the Quran style is more complex, like a poem, but with deep meaning, than one in the hadith.
b.   Verses that blaming the prophet for some actions

This actually I already gave you in Surah Abasa. But I’ll give you others examples.
Surah At Tawba 9:43
"May Allah pardon you O Prophet! Why did you give them permission to stay behind before those who told the truth were distinguished from those who were lying?"
At Tahrim 66:1
O Prophet! Why do you prohibit yourself from what Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
The question is still: Why would he blame himslef in front of his companion?
c.    The prophecies
The Quran contains prophecies about many events. One I gave explain to you in youtube. Here is the examples:
1.   Surah Ar Ruum 30:2-4
‘2. The Romans have been defeated, 3. in a nearby land. Yet following their defeat, they will triumph. 4. within three to nine years. The whole matter rests with Allah before and after victory. And on that day the believers will rejoice”.
In those days the Byzantine occupied territories adjacent to Arabia were Jordan, Syria and Palestine, and in these territories the Romans were completely overpowered by the Persians in 615 A.D. And proved that later in 624 A.D, The Romans defeating Persians by destroyed Clorumia, the birthplace of Zoroaster, and ravaged the principal fire temple of Persian.
2.   Surah Al Fath, 48:27
“Indeed, Allah will fulfil His Messenger’s vision in all truth: Allah willing, you will surely enter the Sacred Mosque, in security—some with heads shaved and others with hair shortened—without fear. He knew what you did not know, so He first granted you the triumph at hand”.
In January 630, Muhammad peace be upon him and his companions finally can back to Mecca and ruled arabia with Islamic way of life.
  The question is: How could prophet have known future? Why took risk predicting the future?
d.   The delayed of the revelation
1.   The prophet was asked by some jewish about the story about “people in the cave”. The prophet said that he would answer him tomorrow expecting the revelation come but without saying insha Allah (If Allah willing). So the revelation delayed. The delaying was not short, but in 15 days, when finally the answer come as Surah Kahfi (18) :23-24.
2.   The prophet had difficult time when his wife was accused cheating with his companion. Of course it was just accusation without any evidence from people around him. The prophet waiting for soon revelation that will strongly clear the bad accusation but the revelation didn’t come after 1 month. And the situation is so hard since the wife of Prophet ask permission to Prophet to returned to her family. Finally after 1 month since the event of accusation, the revelation come to give the truth to the prophet that her wife is not a cheater and the bad people who spreading the false news would be punished. The Surah was An Nuur, 24:11-20.
The question is, if Muhammad peace be upon him just crafted the Quran by himself, why would he wait for so long to give an answer to his people? For the first case, he could easily answer the next day so that he can keep his promise. For second case, he could easily make “the verses that clear his wife name” in order that people not give bad opinion on him.
e.   The challenge
The verses in Quran itself challenges people to produce anything like the Quran. Even the challenges is for mankind and jinn (unseen creatures) to make. If Quran is made by Muhammad peace be upon him and easy to make, why Muhammad took a risk by openly challenged people to do that?
FYI, as an “arabic literature”, the style of Quran was strangely beautiful in the mind of people at that time and also until present. Many people accused that Muhammad was become a witch, because he can craft some “magic words with deep and beatiful meaning”. While they already know the lingua franca of Muhammad that he used everyday was not like The Quran. That’s why in the history of Arab from the prophet period until now, no one can challenge in producing the arabic speech/written words as the Quran.
f.    Personal information of Prophet
There is no personal information of the Prophet in The Quran. The Muhammad’s name just mention in 4 times in the Quran, which is fewer than other mentions of other prophets. For example Moses 134 times in 34 surahs, as well as Jesus mentioned dozens of times. So if Muhammad had made the Quran himself, wouldn’t he have given himself more credit or at least talked about his struggle more often?

So, we can conclude in fist premise that Muhammad made the Quran himself is actually illogical and full of problems.
 
And now could it be that he used the help of others thing ? Let’s analize possbility no 2:

2.  The Prophet used previous books to make Quran
 
This possibility could easily be refuted because the Prophet was illiterate which means that he could not read and write and even if we assume that he was not illiterate, where would he have got hold of the Bible or The Torah in arabic? Because the first arabic translation of Bible was made in 9th century which is a hundred years er the death of Muhammad peace be upon him and how could he have read it added to that, until around the 18th century the Church was essentially hiding the Bible from common people and forbade its translation? Therefore this leads us with no other conclusion than that The Prophet could not have used the previous books to write the Quran
So, the second premise is also illogical and full of problems.

Well, it could be in 3rd possibility? It seems that this was happening. Ok, let’s analize it:
3.  The Prophet used someone’s help
 
Was it any Jew or Christian that help Muhammad to create the Quran? Well, in the authentic (shahih) hadith, we will only find single hadith about the encounter between The Prophet and someone called Waraqa bin Naufal (a Christian). However The Prophet met Waraqah bin Naufal after the revelation came to him, not before revelation. Besides, in the hadith, Waraqah even testifies that Muhammad peace be upon him was the Prophet. So how could he have been the one who would help him to write the Quran?
Even if it wasn’t Waraqah and it was other Christian or Jew who would help The Prophet to write The Quran, how could they allow him to write verses like these:
a.   They are surely infidels who say “God is The Christ son of Mary” (Al Maidah, 5:72)
b.   You will be find the Jews and idolaters most excessive in hatred of those who believe (Al Maidah, 5:82)
How can it make sense that Jew or Christian would help The Prophet write something like that?

4.  The Prophet got it from satan
Well, I guess you denied this possibility. Because you didn’t believe the satan existence. But I just give reason that it would impossible if it come from satan:
a.   We as a muslim are taught to seek refuge from satan before starting to recite Al Quran
“O, when you recite The Quran, seek refuge in God from Satan the execrable” (An Nahl 16:98)
b.   Numerous verses in the Quran declaring satans as the mortal foe of humans

How could it be possible that satan helped the Prophet to write verses that cursing himself and declaring him as the enemy. And why would satan tell his plan to tempt humans and expose himself like that. Therefore it is impossible for satan to have held the Prophet write The Quran.

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Now I would ask you, Quran is exist. It is one of the phenomena of the nature in universe, as well as others. It is impossible being made by human. Then, how could you explain how it came into existence? Was it like the causing of life, which is science has not now yet? Or just Occam Razor, that it just the way it did. No more explanation.

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To me, of course it was from “the fundamental stuff” which is living forever, intelligent, has idea, has purpose. And it also as an empirical evidence to my postulation. That it was God who communicate to human. He is unseen, but his words is transferable and understoodable by us. Spreading in the history of humanity. Might be in history, humans ever changed it to their ambition. But He revealed his last words for humanity, which is unchanged, so that human know now that his words always go with sciences and rationality. So that human know, that is the truth.

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The Quran is a book. No different than my holy book.  

However my Book is the only one and true book of the one and only true creator of all things all other faiths are false, It says so in the book.

How do you suppose we resolve this?

(July 13, 2024 at 12:55 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Few things to consider.  Firstly, were not sure it makes sense to say things like "got his consciousness".  This imports superstitious ideas about the bestowal of some trait or attribute...and in full, all at once, no less... but there's nothing in evidence to back that up and everything in evidence argues against it.  Fantastically and informatively so in the case of hss..us, and the very claims you make.  Secondly, human beings are curious and creative.  We discover and learn and do things our parents never conceived of.  Like islam.......for example....


We find a point of agreement here.  I also don't think that proto-religions or full blown religions or contemporary religions have to manufacture transcendental experience.  They do appear to manufacture gods, though, and that process is very much in evidence in the archeological record, the historic record, and continues to be with us in the present day.  It's not like you believe in all of those other gods..right?  What are they if not manufactured?  Why do we keep creating gods, and the wrong gods, from your pov?  Don't you think it -might- be in service of some need, rightly or wrongly?  Can you see that even if people do have their parents gods to refer to, they still go ahead and make their own?

Do you believe that your god is actually the god of your parents, or do you have your own opinions about it?

Well, some scientists and atheists of course not sure whether the consciousness was "drop of" from agency or not. And theist always sure that it was "drop of" from God. The problem is we just can't see it. 
In Islam, anyone could actually seek and observed how the consciousness was there. All people are encouraged to observe the nature. The difference is the POV. Muslim, when they find the discoveries, said that "those are the way God did with some nature phenomena". But atheist rather post an absurd stand which is : "That's the way nature did, so there is no God".

About consciousness, why scientist not tried to put a camera in the womb of some animal, let's say elephant, and see how the consciousness happened for the first time in her baby?

About "the God things", I accept it of course from my parents from the first time. But as time continue, I started to think by myself, how it was makes sense to me. The result is yes, Islam is makes sense, and it came true from God.

(July 15, 2024 at 12:25 pm)Nay_Sayer Wrote: The Quran is a book. No different than my holy book.  

However my Book is the only one and true book of the one and only true creator of all things all other faiths are false, It says so in the book.

How do you suppose we resolve this?

Then show me the rational evidence that your holy book is impossible come from human. Like I did. So simple

(July 15, 2024 at 10:38 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(July 15, 2024 at 3:58 am)soulcalm17 Wrote: Now I would ask you, Quran is exist. It is one of the phenomena of the nature in universe, as well as others.  It is impossible being made by human.

This is a statement of your religious beliefs, but not a statement of fact.  It is certainly possible, regardless of whether or not you think it's true...that any piece of literature has been made by humans.

Then show me in which verses of the Quran that has been made by humans. With empirical evidence. Because you state that it made by humans.

All of them.

It's one thing to strongly believe that a book is magic, and it's another to state that it would be impossible for a book to have been created by humans. I don't expect you to change your religious beliefs about the former..I do expect you to be able to correct your misstatement of the latter.

(July 14, 2024 at 2:30 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I can’t tell the difference between Universe A and Universe B. Both seem identical to me.
1. Universe A: the jewish god exists. He created the stuff and lifeform on this planet. Everything is artificial. He doesn’t show himself.
2. Universe B: No gods exists. Everything is natural.

If you want to believe that the jewish god exists outside this universe, I can use another name. Let’s call it Puniverse.
1. In Puniverse A, there is the jewish god and he created Universe A in Puniverse A.
2. In Puniverse B, natural processes transformed some stuff into Universe B. There are no gods. Everything is natural.

So, like I said, both seem identical to me.
I see no reason for there being 1 god and for him to remain in hiding, I see no reason for out of the hundreds or thousands of religions that various cultures have created, only 1 happens to be the correct one.
In fact, quite a lot of cultures view their religions as the correct religion.
Apparently, this god would have existed forever and suddenly, at some point decides to create humans.
You or this prophet would have to give a pretty solid explanation on that one. There is no excuse for not having an answer.

Honestly, I can't imagine how could there is no God.

But okay I try to understand you better.
 
You said that there was no difference with universe A and universe B
You said everything is natural in universe B
 
But the fact is religions always there. If there was really no God, could you agree with me the consequence:
 
There would be no "conversation of God" exist among humans.
“The conversations of God” exist is something odd in universe B.
 
This is because, theoritically, they would just face the reality with occam's razor principe. Why they would crafted some "imagination about supranatural thing"? That were useless and has no effect with their daily life?
You would say, it because they were not enlightned by science yet. But they were actually have known practical science like :how to eat some food, which one food that are not poisonous, which water that could be drinked, how to make weapon to hunt animals, and many more. They were smart as well as us.
Even the new discoveries found that some animals had their religious sense. Chimpanzees in West Africa have been spotted banging and throwing rocks against trees and throwing them into gaps inside, leading to piles of rocks. Those rocks do not appear to be for any functional purpose — and might be an example of an early version of ritual behaviour. (Mysterious chimpanzee behaviour could be ‘sacred rituals’ and show that chimps believe in god – The Independent-, 4 March 2016)
The "imagination about supranatural thing" that I means actually the concept of one God that omniscience and omnipotent actually widespread in every culture and every time. Later on I will give evidence in this topic insha Allah.

Theists are good at convincing themselves of irrational beliefs.

(July 15, 2024 at 9:20 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: All of them.

It's one thing to strongly believe that a book is magic, and it's another to state that it would be impossible for a book to have been created by humans.  I don't expect you to change your religious beliefs about the former..I do expect you to be able to correct your misstatement of the latter.

Which one is my missstatement do I need to correct? That The Quran is impossible made by human? That is my belief also and I already demonstrate rationally the why.