There is a very famous psychiatrist / Self-help book writer called Scott Peck (1936-2005). He is famous for his book called “The Road Less Travelled” (1978)
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck
 
   I was browsing through his book called “The People of The Lie: Toward a Psychology of Evil”. I would describe this book as a book that is very ahead of its time, brilliantly exploring the issue of antagonistic / narcissist / sociopathic personality disorders (as we call them today) that is paving the road for the psychologists of our time who now have fewer problem elaborating on these issues (simply because we now have greater reliable information on these personality disorders than back in 1983).
 
   So in his book, Scott peck is studying the issue of “evil”. Evil here is mainly (in our more modern way of thinking) the sum of early childhood issues that can lead someone to self-defeating behaviors or self-involved personality types that are harmful to others or society as a whole. This is a constant dilemma. The author who is a psychiatrist of the 70’s is constantly debating how classical theories are in many cases simply insufficient in understanding a deeper phenomenon that he describes as pure and simple evil (which is rejected by later psychologists who now use terms like “antagonistic behavior” or “NPD” with a whole range of descriptive terms for different types of “evil” people).
 
    I know this has been a lengthy introduction but the most striking part of his book is the part on “Satanic Possessions”. This is also happening in the 70’s. The author who is a psychiatrists gets involved into some exorcism ceremonies and claims he has met the devil and has been changed and moved by this experience. He even gives some details and even refers to interesting resources on real exorcism.
 
    So I wanted to open the debate and start by sharing my view on the issue (which is based on some amount of spiritual literature). In Islam the devil is described as an angel who has been appointed by God, maybe to unbalance the world a little bit with the full permission and awareness of God. In fact the monster-like Devil of the Judeo-Christian tradition is mostly based on the Zoroastrian concept of Ahriman, some sort of Anti-God which is the Opposite of the God Ahura-Mazda. (I’ve also found that these types of concepts tend to migrate a lot between seemingly opposite faiths).
 
   So from a spiritual perspective, the main issue is an issue of “Satan get thee behind me” issue. Most people I know will seek to improve their own awareness and try to establish a better relationship vis a vis their own small-self or Ego.
 
    Yet M. Scott Peck is also pointing to the fact that true psychotherapy can be a form of exorcism that brings up the lies within us to the light and thus frees us from erroneous ideas that are binding us and keeping us from living a happier / healthier life. Some modern writers are also saying that true spirituality and true psychotherapy are the same thing. So this is the part of his work that echoed into the 21st century.
 
    But I’m still shocked, even somehow scared to see how even a 20th century can describe some Christian Exorcism Rituals as a real process dealing with real demonic forces with the author claiming that “He looked Satan in the Eyes” during those rituals.
 
    The only thing similar to that in spiritual literature is our “pain bodies” as described by Eckhart Tolle. These are lifeless / unconscious energies that emanate from humans that can be present in places like ancient prisons or mental institutions that can cause sensitive people to feel depressed, angry, fearful etc. And there are really techniques to dissolve these energy bodies or protect ourselves from their influence.
 
    Yet, anthropologically, people seem to like the idea of demons getting inside them. In some cultures it’s the Djinn. In other cultures they might ask us which insect it was that bit us. Personally (and as a spiritual person) I simply know that such people will simply get better within a week or so, after they start using the right type of medicine that has been prescribed by some mental health practitioner.   

Worth noting, this is a scene supposedly of an actual exorcism from the documentary The Devil and Father Amorth.





And, somehow, despite trying for extreme realism (no crew, no lighting, and supposedly no more than a single camera, despite several instances where he clearly cuts to another angle without missing a beat) William Friedkin decided to add some obvious sound editing.

Overall, it seems like the victim is just playing a part. It does not look like the power of Christ is legitimately compelling her at any point.

Jesus christ buy a cookbook for a change.

And...another useless wall o' text.

You know what, while this thread is still going, I might as well have some fun with it.

Relevant section starts about 45 minutes in:





And now I want to see something like Modern Family adapting this. Like Claire's gotten possessed somehow and, in between exorcism sessions that look like parodies of The Exorcist, she and Phil are just being interviewed about it.

(November 28, 2024 at 5:11 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Jesus christ buy a cookbook for a change.

   I totally agree that there are so many other subjects in this life to be interested in. But if you will just look at the number of Hollywood movies on the subject you can see that the majority of people seem to be interested in these subjects rather than not.

   Personally, I choose to leave the subject aside because it’s negative, scary and misleading. In organized religions this theme is used to scare and terrorize people so that out of the fear of these supernatural creatures they will be willing to keep practicing outdated religious rituals and keep believing whatever stuff their Rabi / Priest or Imam is feeding them.


   But this guy is different (I mean Scott Peck). When I find people who have intelligent theories on a phenomenon that we all know exists in this world even if there has been no verifiable observation just yet, I tend to read these works.
 
  Another important point is that there are all sort of misleading works on the subject. In “People of the Lie – The Hope for Healing Human Evil” Scott peck is event pointing out to the fact that “possessed” people are usually people who messed with some occult practices at some point in their lives. He also states that true possession is a rather rare phenomenon.
   So this reminds me of some Laveyan writings I had come upon many years ago. These occult approaches are r

omanticizing the “rebel” nature of Satan and are using to create another distorted picture of the phenomenon of Evil and or “Father of the Lie” as Scott Peck defines it.

   And the guy he is referring to for deeper study is Malachi Martin and the book is called “Hostage to the Devil”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_Martin

   So if we are to refuse an idea, isn’t it better to first try to understand it correctly?

   Again: I don’t believe that typical religious belief and/or popular culture understands this issue in the right manner. Which is why I will recommend this book to anyone who might be interested in the subject. 

Oh, please do shut the fuck up.

Find another playground.

(November 29, 2024 at 10:04 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(November 28, 2024 at 5:11 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Jesus christ buy a cookbook for a change.

  if you will just look at the number of Hollywood movies on the subject you can see that the majority of people seem to be interested in these subjects rather than not.

I find scifi movies entertaining, this doesn't make them true or anything in them real. 

Quote:  Personally, I choose to leave the subject aside because it’s negative, scary and misleading. 

I see nothing scary here, except how willing intelligent people are to believe in irrational and unevidneced supersition. 

Quote:   But this guy is different (I mean Scott Peck). 

If the supersition he is peddling is unsupported by any objective evidence, then no, it's not different. 

Quote:When I find people who have intelligent theories on a phenomenon that we all know exists in this world even if there has been no verifiable observation just yet, I tend to read these works.

That seems like an obvious oxymoron, we would only know something exists if there is sufficient verifiable or objective evidence. 

Quote:Scott peck is event pointing out to the fact that “possessed” people are usually people who messed with some occult practices at some point in their lives. He also states that true possession is a rather rare phenomenon.

The claim anyone is ever possessed, or that possessions are possible is not a fact, it's a supersitious belief. Since no one has ever demsontrated anything approaching objective evidence that possessions are possible, raring than he thinks I'd bet. 

Quote:So if we are to refuse an idea, isn’t it better to first try to understand it correctly?

So I need to become an expert on the Harry Potter novels before I can disbelieve the claim they evidence wizardry? This tire old canard is bread and butter to "snake oil"salesmen. The burden of proof lies with the claim, not with those who disbeliive those claims. What you've asserted there looks suspiciously like an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, and that fallacy is very common in superstitious apologetics. 
Offer the most compelling reason you have, for believing possessions are real, or that they are even possible. Please don't waste my time citing books or authors, you have brought the claims here, so just pick the most compelling reason you gleaned from them.

(November 29, 2024 at 10:04 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:    I totally agree that there are so many other subjects in this life to be interested in. But if you will just look at the number of Hollywood movies on the subject you can see that the majority of people seem to be interested in these subjects rather than not.

You may be mistaken.  Devils and possession present themselves as gimmicks or props in those movies and in our folk tales about them.  We're interested in the human drama of the movie, in the conclusion of the fable in our lived experience.  Cultures that don't believe in demons or your devil sub in other creatures and entities and nonentities too to the same end, though the idea of how a possessed person would behave changes too..as do ideas about what taboo and virtue means in the context of the tale... and we love those stories as well.  It's not the specific cast of characters that keeps drawing us back - those change from culture to culture, across time within cultures..and ofc from movie to movie or story to story.  

Quote:   Personally, I choose to leave the subject aside because it’s negative, scary and misleading. In organized religions this theme is used to scare and terrorize people so that out of the fear of these supernatural creatures they will be willing to keep practicing outdated religious rituals and keep believing whatever stuff their Rabi / Priest or Imam is feeding them.

Sure, operant conditioning and cautionary tales.  

Quote:   But this guy is different (I mean Scott Peck). When I find people who have intelligent theories on a phenomenon that we all know exists in this world even if there has been no verifiable observation just yet, I tend to read these works.

The phenomena of moral evil or moral failure.  The phenomena of things that go bump in the night?  The phenomena of people blaming their moral evil and failures for things that go bump in the night?

Or do you mean demons and gods and supernatural possessions?
 

Quote:  Another important point is that there are all sort of misleading works on the subject. In “People of the Lie – The Hope for Healing Human Evil” Scott peck is event pointing out to the fact that “possessed” people are usually people who messed with some occult practices at some point in their lives. He also states that true possession is a rather rare phenomenon.  So this reminds me of some Laveyan writings I had come upon many years ago. These occult approaches are romanticizing the “rebel” nature of Satan and are using to create another distorted picture of the phenomenon of Evil and or “Father of the Lie” as Scott Peck defines it.

First of all, I doubt this claim that such people are usually people who've messed with occult practices, the author's "usually" is unlikely to hold up to rigorous scrutiny - but on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised at all that people who report being possessed by some evil are already conditioned to believe as much or expressing themselves that way.  In this "occult practices".... a weasel term if ever there were one... are not causal but contemporaneous.   People who think demons are real and possess people are also more likely believe occult practices are real and effective.  Part and parcel.

Quote:   And the guy he is referring to for deeper study is Malachi Martin and the book is called “Hostage to the Devil”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_Martin

   So if we are to refuse an idea, isn’t it better to first try to understand it correctly?

   Again: I don’t believe that typical religious belief and/or popular culture understands this issue in the right manner. Which is why I will recommend this book to anyone who might be interested in the subject. 

Do you mean understand exorcism as primitive psychotherapy or understanding ghosts and goblins walking around in edgar suits?

(November 29, 2024 at 2:18 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(November 29, 2024 at 10:04 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:    I totally agree that there are so many other subjects in this life to be interested in. But if you will just look at the number of Hollywood movies on the subject you can see that the majority of people seem to be interested in these subjects rather than not.

You may be mistaken.  Devils and possession present themselves as gimmicks or props in those movies and in our folk tales about them.  We're interested in the human drama of the movie, in the conclusion of the fable in our lived experience.  Cultures that don't believe in demons or your devil sub in other creatures and entities and nonentities too to the same end, though the idea of how a possessed person would behave changes too..as do ideas about what taboo and virtue means in the context of the tale... and we love those stories as well.  It's not the specific cast of characters that keeps drawing us back - those change from culture to culture, across time within cultures..and ofc from movie to movie or story to story.  

Quote:   Personally, I choose to leave the subject aside because it’s negative, scary and misleading. In organized religions this theme is used to scare and terrorize people so that out of the fear of these supernatural creatures they will be willing to keep practicing outdated religious rituals and keep believing whatever stuff their Rabi / Priest or Imam is feeding them.

Sure, operant conditioning and cautionary tales.  

Quote:   But this guy is different (I mean Scott Peck). When I find people who have intelligent theories on a phenomenon that we all know exists in this world even if there has been no verifiable observation just yet, I tend to read these works.

The phenomena of moral evil or moral failure.  The phenomena of things that go bump in the night?  The phenomena of people blaming their moral evil and failures for things that go bump in the night?

Or do you mean demons and gods and supernatural possessions?
 

Quote:  Another important point is that there are all sort of misleading works on the subject. In “People of the Lie – The Hope for Healing Human Evil” Scott peck is event pointing out to the fact that “possessed” people are usually people who messed with some occult practices at some point in their lives. He also states that true possession is a rather rare phenomenon.  So this reminds me of some Laveyan writings I had come upon many years ago. These occult approaches are romanticizing the “rebel” nature of Satan and are using to create another distorted picture of the phenomenon of Evil and or “Father of the Lie” as Scott Peck defines it.

First of all, I doubt this claim that such people are usually people who've messed with occult practices, the author's "usually" is unlikely to hold up to rigorous scrutiny - but on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised at all that people who report being possessed by some evil are already conditioned to believe as much or expressing themselves that way.  In this "occult practices".... a weasel term if ever there were one... are not causal but contemporaneous.   People who think demons are real and possess people are also more likely believe occult practices are real and effective.  Part and parcel.

Quote:   And the guy he is referring to for deeper study is Malachi Martin and the book is called “Hostage to the Devil”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_Martin

   So if we are to refuse an idea, isn’t it better to first try to understand it correctly?

   Again: I don’t believe that typical religious belief and/or popular culture understands this issue in the right manner. Which is why I will recommend this book to anyone who might be interested in the subject. 

Do you mean understand exorcism as primitive psychotherapy or understanding ghosts and goblins walking around in edgar suits?

It’s more subtle than that.
 
Yes I happen to agree with most of the things you people say. I was talking about the reality as “energy” about what we call the Devil. So when the author (who was a psychiatrist) says that “he looked Satan in the eyes” during one of the two exorcism events that he witnessed, I kind of understand his point because he explains it in a detailed manner in the book as a whole.
 
In a nutshell: We all have our demons to fight in this world. Right? So when we talk about our personal demons the one fact is that these are not here not to negatively influence you. It’s there to destroy you and take a few other people with you if it can. Think of (rather grown up people issues) like addictions, bad habits, other spiritual problems and life issues that tend to stick around until you are able to resolve them and get to the next stage of your spiritual development.
 
   So “personal Evil” is that kind of phenomenon. You can’t measure it. You can do scientific experiments on it but if you happen to be a life coach or a psychotherapist you tend to be aware of these “forces” and work with them every day of your professional life.
 
    I didn’t say anything new to anyone until this point.
 
    But the author here indicates that something happened in the two exorcism rituals that he had witnessed first-hand. And that those two guys would have probably died without these ceremonies (and he is saying this as a psychiatrist). So I was a little shocked and wanted to open the debate here