Why are the “Self- “ stuff in the thread subject highly encouraged even in a secular environment, while the other 3 stuff are highly discouraged, even in a secular environment,

To elaborate we all know and live under capitalism, reject/sacrifice/deny self-interests just to pay bills or alternatively please “society”. And if we dare to stroke our ego by rewarding ourselves with hedonistic earthly pleasures (aka hobbies/interests/passions), we’re “greedy” “selfish” “egoistic” or worse “psychopaths”.

Having a job that matches someone’s interests/passions is a pipe dream, think of average joes’ typical boring jobs

Is “society” just a “secular God” because there’s also a heavy system of pressures, guilt and shame for not keeping up with the many imposed standards, roles, norms. And also perceived rewards for following what it deems desirable approved “status symbols”.

Even after having rejected God, gods, spirits and all that, there’s no escaping pressures, guilt and shame and it sucks, let alone the FOMO of not having the approved “status symbols”.

Why is the society so self-averse or self-“hating”.

I don't understand what you mean by 

Quote:Why are the “Self- “ stuff in the thread subject highly encouraged even in a secular environment, while the other 3 stuff are highly discouraged, even in a secular environment,

I also don't understand the rest of you post, so...

Boru

(Yesterday at 5:22 am)AB Caro Wrote: Why are the “Self- “ stuff in the thread subject highly encouraged even in a secular environment, while the other 3 stuff are highly discouraged, even in a secular environment,

To elaborate we all know and live under capitalism, reject/sacrifice/deny self-interests just to pay bills or alternatively please “society”. And if we dare to stroke our ego by rewarding ourselves with hedonistic earthly pleasures (aka hobbies/interests/passions), we’re “greedy” “selfish” “egoistic” or worse “psychopaths”.

Having a job that matches someone’s interests/passions is a pipe dream, think of average joes’ typical boring jobs

Is “society” just a “secular God” because there’s also a heavy system of pressures, guilt and shame for not keeping up with the many imposed standards, roles, norms. And also perceived rewards for following what it deems desirable approved “status symbols”.

Even after having rejected God, gods, spirits and all that, there’s no escaping pressures, guilt and shame and it sucks, let alone the FOMO of not having the approved “status symbols”.

Why is the society so self-averse or self-“hating”.

How does pursuing a hobby make me greedy or selfish?

Wondered the same. (your bold) I make quilts and give them away. Not sure how that is a hobby that is greedy, selfish or all the other things listed.

As for status symbols, I am an aging hippie living in an older home, wearing jeans and T-shirts, and driving a nine year old car that needs to last till I die and I am good with that.

(Yesterday at 5:22 am)AB Caro Wrote: Why are the “Self- “ stuff in the thread subject highly encouraged even in a secular environment, while the other 3 stuff are highly discouraged, even in a secular environment,

Very interesting questions, and I fear there is no satisfying answer.

I guess I will stick up for self-denial a little bit. Some kinds of pleasure are more satisfying than others, and to get to them may require discipline. Most ascetics would argue (I think) that their goal is not the elimination of pleasure, but rather a kind of pleasure that lasts -- that isn't dependent on material goods or other people's whims. So denying oneself SOME things is going to get more pleasure in the long run.

Quote:To elaborate we all know and live under capitalism, reject/sacrifice/deny self-interests just to pay bills or alternatively please “society”. And if we dare to stroke our ego by rewarding ourselves with hedonistic earthly pleasures (aka hobbies/interests/passions), we’re “greedy” “selfish” “egoistic” or worse “psychopaths”.


Having a job that matches someone’s interests/passions is a pipe dream, think of average joes’ typical boring jobs

You are certainly correct that a money-based society puts a lot of people into jobs that don't yield many benefits even in the long run. If you're slaving away and never getting ahead, this isn't the kind of self-discipline that I am recommending. 

Quote:Is “society” just a “secular God” because there’s also a heavy system of pressures, guilt and shame for not keeping up with the many imposed standards, roles, norms. And also perceived rewards for following what it deems desirable approved “status symbols”.

So if we assume there is no God and no fear of divine punishment, I guess we need SOMETHING to teach us to get along with each other. I wouldn't want to live in a society that had NO pressures or guilt or shame, standards or norms. 

But you're right that beyond these necessary guardrails for behavior, society does enforce its rules on us. Every group has its self-appointed conformity enforcers who tell us when we're being (in their eyes) unacceptable. And the things that they consider to be signs of success may not be what you and I want at all. 

We have to be careful here, because while society tells us to deny ourselves, it also determines in many ways what a hedonistic life would look like. That is, all of our ideas come into us through society, we are never detached from it, and this includes the ideas about what a free and hedonistic life would look like. 

(Yesterday at 7:50 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: How does pursuing a hobby make me greedy or selfish?

Not my thoughts but society’s. For the “selfishness” think of it as, instead of being altruistic? Or doing something for others’ benefit, it’s self-serving. Especially if the hobby isn’t financially lucrative it’s seen as not spending time to serve society’s economy.

I don’t even know myself about the “greediness”, it’s coming from society, not my thoughts.

(Yesterday at 8:52 am)AB Caro Wrote:

(Yesterday at 7:50 am)zebo-the-fat Wrote: How does pursuing a hobby make me greedy or selfish?

Not my thoughts but society’s. For the “selfishness” think of it as, instead of being altruistic? Or doing something for others’ benefit, it’s self-serving. Especially if the hobby isn’t financially lucrative it’s seen as not spending time to serve society’s economy.

I don’t even know myself about the “greediness”, it’s coming from society, not my thoughts.

Hobbies aren't really meant to be financially lucrative.

(Yesterday at 8:12 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(Yesterday at 5:22 am)AB Caro Wrote: Why are the “Self- “ stuff in the thread subject highly encouraged even in a secular environment, while the other 3 stuff are highly discouraged, even in a secular environment,

Very interesting questions, and I fear there is no satisfying answer.

I guess I will stick up for self-denial a little bit. Some kinds of pleasure are more satisfying than others, and to get to them may require discipline. Most ascetics would argue (I think) that their goal is not the elimination of pleasure, but rather a kind of pleasure that lasts -- that isn't dependent on material goods or other people's whims. So denying oneself SOME things is going to get more pleasure in the long run.

(I accidentally deleted my relevant quote here and can’t be bothered to put it back)


So if we assume there is no God and no fear of divine punishment, I guess we need SOMETHING to teach us to get along with each other. I wouldn't want to live in a society that had NO pressures or guilt or shame, standards or norms. 

But you're right that beyond these necessary guardrails for behavior, society does enforce its rules on us. Every group has its self-appointed conformity enforcers who tell us when we're being (in their eyes) unacceptable. And the things that they consider to be signs of success may not be what you and I want at all. 

We have to be careful here, because while society tells us to deny ourselves, it also determines in many ways what a hedonistic life would look like. That is, all of our ideas come into us through society, we are never detached from it, and this includes the ideas about what a free and hedonistic life would look like. 

Self-discipline through self-denial makes sense, I’m thinking of the research of the kids withholding the immediate gratification of 1 lollipop vs 2 lollipops (the actual treat doesn’t matter) for waiting patiently. And I’m assuming the “SOME things” to deny include alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, gambling, porn, maybe even junk food because of the proven researched harms in them.

As for the ascetics, is it even possible to be a secular (NEITHER spiritual NOR religious) ascetic? Because the pleasure most of them talk about is always something spiritual/religious in nature. Or if we stretch the definition of “spiritual” to something like “Mark Green’s Atheopaganism” which is just “awe” for natural occurences, now that makes sense.

Yes, I agree that there should definitely be universal morals, “these necessary guardrails for behavior” even in the absence of God/other divine agents such as no murder, theft, rape, corruption (in the broad sense), terrorism, these ones are of high seriousness, while in medium seriousness would be no cheating (in the broad sense), lying (except white lies), after all we need the right to be protected from danger. And that’s enough pressures, guilt, shame, standards or norms. It would be nice to not have the “cliques” of, for example, gender norms (sexism, homophobia, transphobia, cishetnormativity), racist stereotypes, socioeconomic class stereotypes, and all the “signs of success” and “conformity enforcers” attached with them, but at this point it’s just a utopian delusion because we are too obsessed with labels (tribalism?)

Also agree that no matter what, we will always live in a society, but there’s no harm in living a “free and hedonistic life”*The “harm” would be the harmful effects of “alcohol, drugs… junk food”, maybe even the opportunity costs of “self-discipline through self-denial” if they count as a net loss of pleasure that could have been experienced in a finite lifespan.

If our lives are finite and there are no afterlives, we should exercise our self-earned/self-given(?) rights to live a “free and hedonistic life” as much as possible in our lifespans (check my signature)

You can live a "free and hedonistic life” as much as you like so long as it does no harm to anyone else

(Yesterday at 9:15 am)arewethereyet Wrote:

(Yesterday at 8:52 am)AB Caro Wrote: Not my thoughts but society’s. For the “selfishness” think of it as, instead of being altruistic? Or doing something for others’ benefit, it’s self-serving. Especially if the hobby isn’t financially lucrative it’s seen as not spending time to serve society’s economy.

I don’t even know myself about the “greediness”, it’s coming from society, not my thoughts.

Hobbies aren't really meant to be financially lucrative.

Yes, being financially lucrative is definitely important, but it does not need to be put on a pedestal. As if full-time work hours isn’t already exhausting enough, some jobs make you do extra hours for no additional pay.

And the whole point of hobbies is to fill the time not spent studying/working/sleeping.

But some enforcers in society act like financial lucrativeness should be put on a pedestal, and praise work hours that consume an overtly large ratio of work time to non-work time, the 5:2 ratio is already as unbalanced as it is, and some of these society enforcers praise a 6:1 or maybe even 7:0 for being “altruistic” “selfless” “serving”, and not everyone wants these “status symbols” either.

If I have so much wealth but never get to use it for something other than paying bills, daily necessities, or serving any entity outside of myself (family members also count), why overwork myself just for “society’s approval”?

Some workplaces do a 4:3 ratio which is better. Or 3:4 and less if part-time/unemployed, but these won’t be as financially lucrative.